Hate the character, don't the hate the player

[Gwain]

I just want to remind people that in a game like this ic interaction is everything and in everyway. Don't assume that what a character does icly reflects on their players in ooc. If you have issues with an rp that is wholly ic in nature, I'd recommend addressing it icly with that player or avoiding them. If you feel that it is spilling into ooc, I'd recommend sending it in to complaints where it will be addressed (I've had 100% of my complaints addressed). However if it is an intense rp that icly driven, try to remember to keep it ic before ooc. Going ooc in response to ic situations only muddles them and leaves everyone upset. Just do the best you can or simply abandon it or if it is an ic situation, address the issues with the character icly. Its still just a game, try to have fun. Its always sad to hate or be rude to someone ooc for something their character has done icly.

[Shabanna]

"simply abandon it"

Nuff said....

[Kallias]

The only time I get upset at a player is when their actions are motivated from ooc instances, or they use ooc instances to backward reason ic actions that parallel both in character and out of character so they can go back and say "see, it wasn't ooc!".

Those sort of coincidences should happen very rarely. When it happens often...like on a weekly basis, it upsets me...especially when I believe it's done strictly to get a rise out of other players.

There is a grand lesson in learning in what is actually IC to say, and what /can/ be in character to say based on what you know OOC.

[Saranya]

There is a grand lesson in learning in what is actually IC to say, and what /can/ be in character to say based on what you know OOC.

Very well put. In my experience "backward reasoning" really sticks out during actual RP, making things very awkward to respond to...

Everyone is right that often the best solution is to walk away if you're not having fun, but that's sometimes hard to do when you've invested a lot of work into the RP.

[Mouat]

Gwain, a well needed post. This is one of those posts where I think everybody should have to read to continue playing.

[Isolrem]

The line between off topic forum and general discussion seems a bit blurred, but I still see this in GC. Good post.

[Casious]

Nice one.

I would suggest adding, "RP with the character, not the player."
A few people have figured out some of my other characters and made in game references that were a little suggestive of who they might be. Even if you figure out the player, treat the character uniquely.

[Skeas]

Well put, Cas. I've seen a LOT (and admittedly been one a time or two) of characters who should never, ever, ever be civil to each other being best friends because they know each other OOCly.

[Shabanna]

I just want to remind people that in a game like this ic interaction is everything and in everyway. Don't assume that what a character does icly reflects on their players in ooc. If you have issues with an rp that is wholly ic in nature, I'd recommend addressing it icly with that player or avoiding them. If you feel that it is spilling into ooc, I'd recommend sending it in to complaints where it will be addressed (I've had 100% of my complaints addressed). However if it is an intense rp that icly driven, try to remember to keep it ic before ooc. Going ooc in response to ic situations only muddles them and leaves everyone upset. Just do the best you can or simply abandon it or if it is an ic situation, address the issues with the character icly. Its still just a game, try to have fun. Its always sad to hate or be rude to someone ooc for something their character has done icly.

I have tried to just stay out of this discussion... But I have decided to make a comment and hopefully it will be clear I tend to ramble.

I completely agree that people should not randomly hate one another for stuff that happens ICLY. sometimes.. things just happen. A couple fails to get along, An enemy happens upon you on a bad day, someone steals your Mojo... and your char is effected, but lifegoes on...your char gets a new squeeze, you get a promotion for *taking care* of a faith enemy you get back your mojo plus a little umpf... and the world is bright.

BUT... Sometimes... you have a character, one you play alot. You interact with people on a near daily basis...and everytime... you run into a particular char they harass you in a way that looks IC but the comments are those borderline IC OOC things. It starts innocently enough. A few comments in the square aimed at noting in particular, you blow it off. But then.... suddenly... everything that you utter, wear, or participate in becomes a point of tension. And on occasion some of the things mentioned are things that are not known at all about our character or... even things your character has never done! Things that another's character did and were punished for OOC are suddenly being linked to you! " I heard an echo about it I assumed it was you" is the response when you try to deal with it ICLY and you feel you have no recourse. Yes you could report it... but... the person making the comments is someone who holds JUuuuust a little more *clout* than yourself. We are not all wearing blinders I will be honest we know who here is on staff and who has been here a bit longer and a LOT of people know what chars also are Imms and Staff in general are known as well ( it gets around...) while I am not pulling the *favoritism* card I am saying that as a player...IF ( And I said *IF*) you have a situation like this arise it is bad enough but.. IF the person who is fitting the square peg of OOC into the round hole of IC is someone who is of import... you really know you are out of luck.

You hear...." Send it to complaints " But if you send a log to complaints of two characters arguing what looks to be an IC situation...it will meet with blank stares I assure you. While you as a player have come to the point where you can not even walk in to the square if X player is on because they will continue to needle or chastise your character. Walking away is not always an option as that player may continue to contact you via tell or otell and then if that is turned off... IMer... and they do not call you nasty names or say anything rotten... they just will not leave it lie...

My point in all this...
IMHO...There is a problem with harassment using what looks to be IC comments. I think it needs to be addressed in a way that does not put the players who have dealt with it in a bad light. What I do not think helps is the idea that just because your character is a jerk you think you can continually harass someone to the ooc point of frustration.( and by continually I mean each and everytime your players meet) It is clearly stated in the rules that a player can say to another that they do not like the direction an RP is taking and put an end to it if they feel it is harassment. ( I tend to walk away because I do not want to get into a shouting match...Italian temper... ) I think we should broaden our minds past *sexual harassment* as something does not have to be lude to be hurtful. If a PC who is for all other reason acceptable for an area ( A goodie in WD) is constantly made to feel unwelcome in a major area where they SHOULD BE WELCOME ( Such as the square) by another player...and they are continually harassed ...and trying to solve it ICLY is not working... I think using the FADE rules to call an end to it might help. Can we type *fade to black* or even use osay to interject " Osay hey can we call a fade on this argument?" when we are being made to feel like crud continually by a bitter barrage of harassing remarks (made repeatedly by the same player) to let them know what they have done has crossed the line?

I do believe in trying to rp the situation if possible, but sometimes... the IC twisting of OOC is clear and hurtful... and made even worse when it is CONSTANT... and worse yet when done by someone you know you can not really argue with because they outrank you ( though that is not to say all staff are meanies ) lol So please do not say that I am saying its only staff doing it etc... cause I am not. I would like to see a way to diffuse it with fades... or something immediate as sending stuff to complaints is not always a viable solution. ( and some of us are telnet and do not have the luxury of logs... )

[Kallias]

That's pretty much what I was getting at with "just because it can be in character, doesn't make it in character". If you ever feel like someone derives enjoyment from upsetting you as a player, call them on it. Call them a butthead. Tell them that their characters actions make the game less enjoyable for you as a player.

Anyone who plays this game with a motive that is anything less than making the game more enjoyable for all players they interact with...isn't a good player. And any player who finds enjoyment in lessening the enjoyment of others, is a tumor. We don't have to cooperate as PC's - but you have to cooperate as players, even if that means coming to the agreement that no meaningful exchanges will ever be made between each other.

Let them know that it's unwanted as a player. If they continue, I'd osay "i don't roleplay with you, clown" every time they tried to instigate something. I'd suggest being confrontational about it...at least then they can't say they didn't know. Make a scene if they continue. It will end once it becomes too much of an embarrassment/hassle. No good player wishes to be known as someone who isn't able to get along with other players, which includes honoring someone's wishes that they no longer treat your character's in a manner that makes your playing experience less recreational and more stressful.

Never wear roleplay as handcuffs. Roleplay is the medium for an enjoyable past time. Don't contribute back with IC responses. That suggests you wish for the roleplay to continue. Respond in a fashion that removes the suggestion you enjoy the parlay, and be direct in osay as to why.

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edited to add: Mind, that none of this applies if you're feeding back into it. You have to stay firm to the adage of playing the game with the intention of helping others enjoy it.

[Lirith]

I would recommend walking away from every single instance that it occurs, if you feel that affected by it. No one in this game is ever forced to RP with someone, and no one will ever be criticised for removing themselves from something they really aren't comfortable with. A polite otell saying so is all it should take, and as for it being taken to IMs, what else is block for if it's not for that?

[Gwain]

Just on the comments related to 'ranks' and some players being valued above others...

I would like to point out that anyone and everyone in the mud is held responsible for their actions. That the staff and team of admins strives for fairness beyond reasonable doubt. That punishments and warnings (even strikes) are given for those that abuse, wreck and destroy the mud for others not matter their 'rank' imagined or real. I have witnessed such, experienced such. The system takes time but it get's there. If your complaints are real and reasonable then they will be dealt with. I've been witnessing claims that this might not be the case. But I know it is the case. Have faith in the system, follow the steps and rules, post complaints to the complaints forum and be patient and they will be explored. If people are not being as severely punished as they used to be (before 2005) then it is simply because the current complaints staff has shown itself to be a reasonable group of players and administrators that is trying to be fair and judge situations accordingly. This game is not an exercise in victim-hood, its a community with faults and growth. No matter what happens, you can trust that your complaint will be dealt with if it is within the guidelines outlined in the helpfiles.

[Mele]

Assumption is something that eats away at people. Including myself.

While everyone is posting in favor of a 'victim' here, does anyone ever stop to think that perhaps the 'victims' are over looking into situations? That we, as people, worry so much about something that we turn the view into a way that only makes a person of our dislike to be bad?

Do we really and truly believe people care enough about one person to plot against them? (One person as in - whomever the intended harassers are have their one person)

Are we, a community so insecure to believe someone is out there at their computer just trying to ruin a game? Scowling at a screen, alt hopping and stalking one account just to make a text world bad for them? A text world, sincerely.

I don't think you should send a complaint every time you -think- someone is doing something against you. It's not hard to hold a rational conversation with another adult playing this game to say 'I'm really bothered by things and this is how I'm feeling.'

While I do know there are situations in which the actions held ICly are truly motivated with OOC intent, we've all been there, it's most definitely not something I personally believe happens so often to create tense threads like this.

People speak too much via messengers about who said what said where said when, it spreads like wild fire. Over the years I've learned my lessons with using messengers in a community like this to a point where I keep it private, and change it when I need to. Still, to this day, things make it back to me. That I've "said", that I've "done" and that's been "said about me".

While I like to think that I personally have come at peace with the idea that it is what it is, I still can't help but wonder -

Why do we think it's all right to spread to a player base that people are doing these above mentioned things, to make them look like monsters, but to never stop and speak with the players about it?

And why do we think it's all right, if someone is angry enough to vent something and trusts us enough to say it to us, for us to share it with whomever will listen?

If we're doing this, we are just as much as fault as the players assumed to be acting out IC with OOC dislike at the wheel to lead it. We're pitting players against each other by choosing to spread something said in frustration of anger or upset. Toying with people for an "audience" who are all sitting around thinking "A and B really hate each other!" when the fact is - A and B probably don't even know each other. Neither end of this situation feels good for either player. Maybe you don't get along with a player because you, and they, both have not tried to. Often people who don't get along in fact have much more in common than they both care to admit, or bother to notice.

Dramatics are forever a driving force of entertainment for people on the outside - and a source of hurt for the people on the inside. It happens from the first day of kindergarten over a juice box, until the day we die over a bedpan.

Ever the hippy I am, I sincerely believe if you have a problem with another player you should speak with the player. If someone says a player said something, brush it off. They're probably upset and venting. If you approached them about it there's a good chance they'd admit that.

Allow me to throw stones at myself here, too. I've said my fair share of nasty things over the years in the heat of the moment to people, and about people. I'm sorry if something has made it to any person from me. I won't make excuses, but I will express even I have my limits of how far I will go to get to anyone(As in, I WON'T. As in, I would only vent so much to my friend BEFORE it got to someone. NOTHING written between the lines there.) . There's a line that turns someone from a person venting to a slime harassing, and it's a line I never want to see myself cross. So to anyone who has heard something, or thinks I did something that crossed that line - I'm sorry. I do my best not to.

D
(Before the usual starts - no. I'm not speaking as if I'm taking anything personally. No, when I say "you" it is not directed at one person whatsoever.)

[Gwain]

Well said! I'd have to say that this forum thread ties together very nicely on an assortment of issues new and old giving a variety of perspectives over several sensitive topics. I have no doubt that what went into here will help players in the future.

[Isaldur]

"Paranoia is a very comforting state of mind. If you think they're out to get you, it means you think you matter"

“Definition of a victim: a person to whom life happens.”

Mele had quite a few poignant things to say and far more tactfully than I ever will when it comes to this. Even then she felt the need to place an addendum at the end of her post stating:

(Before the usual starts - no. I'm not speaking as if I'm taking anything personally. No, when I say "you" it is not directed at one person whatsoever.)

This to me shows that things are so poor right now that even a post as well-written and POLITE as hers could be taken as a personal attack by anyone. If I asked anyone who would take offense to grow up and wonder how they remotely deal with the stresses of life outside FK, chances are I would have a complaint filed against me.

Here it is anyways because this stuff needs to be said between mature adults who talk to one another, and anyone taking offense is obviously not a before mentioned mature adult..

Get over it, move on, grow up, take responsibility, stop playing the victim, learn to block people on Instant messengers, curb your arrogance, stop crying, it's just a game, deal with your life, stop spreading silly stuff to everyone you know and then acting surprised when it comes back, etc etc, blah blah.

Most importantly however is realize not all of us will always get along.

[Kallias]

There is a difference between perceived personal attacks and having an ooc request stating that what someone is doing is ruining their time on the game, falling on deaf ears.

Huge difference. If someone asks you ooc to stop something. Just stop. We're all here to have fun, and without that ooc communication problems will result.

You can't just keep saying "keep it in character" if it's an OOC issue.

[Isaldur]

There is a difference between perceived personal attacks and having an ooc request stating that what someone is doing is ruining their time on the game, falling on deaf ears.

Huge difference. If someone asks you ooc to stop something. Just stop. We're all here to have fun, and without that ooc communication problems will result.

You can't just keep saying "keep it in character" if it's an OOC issue.

Your forum posts aren't fun for me to read, I want you to stop posting.

See how slippery that slope gets?

[Kallias]

It requires trust. I trust you're being facetious. If you don't trust the players you interact with, why would you want to interact with them in the first place?

No one should be forced to play with anyone else. Any person's desire to not play with another should be respected.

[Isaldur]

Your trust is correct. The following is purely my opinion and does not express the opinions of Forgotten Kingdoms, the Staff of Forgotten Kingdoms, Forgotten Realms, Roleplayers everywhere, or libertines like Tyson who is obviously not a true member of Colbert Nation.

In character is exactly that, and all conflicts in character should be dealt with as such. I'd say it should be done that way even in the face of blatant OOC proof that any conflict against your character is being driven for OOC reasons based purely off the fact you are experiencing it IC. To cater to anyone who claims they are not having fun because of how their character interacts with yours is rubbish based solely on the fact that their character should be the one to respond to the fact their character does not enjoy the company of yours. Their character can respond by many means, up to and including revenge, avoidance, trade embargo, outright war, pie eating contests, satirical prose, and even the much vaunted sport of Gnome Punting.

We are here for enjoyment, but I don't enjoy being dictated to about how I play my character because someone else cannot handle the divide between IC and OOC. I have no sympathy for people who cry about being victimized in any fashion as an auto-response for when they cannot discuss or debate in a civil manner or as a means to get their way in the face of overwhelming adversity. I structure my actions to stay within the guidelines and rules of FK itself, and the day those are changed to where I need to wear kid gloves when dealing with anyone in any situation on the basis they may not enjoy it OOC and not have to deal with it IC is the day I truly stop playing and never come back.

I see enough real victims around the world when CNN and FOX news drone on for 12 hours a day at my job.

Now someone harassing you over IM's is a different story completely, and easily solved by blocking and stopping communication with said person. If you can't even be bothered to assist yourself in subverting poor behavior OOC aimed at you then you have no basis to think others will even take you seriously.

[Kallias]

In character is exactly that, and all conflicts in character should be dealt with as such

Until it becomes an OOC problem. That then requires out of character communication.

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edited to add: I'm a Barry Goldwater republican