Faith Advancement - High Ranks

[Shabanna]

Just wondering...what everyone uses as criterion for faith advance. are there limits to the numbers that can be promoted to higher ranks? or would it be a natural progression for a character who rps regularly and is a good and devoted member of that faith to be be promoted over a number of IRL years...to a higher rank. I have noted that it seems in some cases there is no real criterion for this and sometimes followers are promoted once or twice and left to stagnate regardless of their involvement.

I realize faith managers have their own systems. Maybe some of you could share how it is you decide to promote people to the higher ranks of your faith? Is it luck of the draw? What makes you bump someone up into the highest rank? How do you decide to take someone from say Prelate... to Inner Circle?

We see post after post about how to get INTO a faith... but no body talks about how to move up. I think we all flounder in the dark and in some cases serious animosity builds when you sit in a *semi advanced* position for years and have no recourse. If you play your char regularly and are a good faith member who is active and helpful... DO you ask for a task? Do you just ASk? what is right? How do you make that final leap to inner circle? ( Perhaps to some this does not matter and to others... it is quite important just as some like to train stats... some like to advance... )

Banna

[Isaldur]

I try and make certain that all members of the faith at least reach Acolyte in level over time, which is according to the helpfiles a normal rank. To me, being any rank above Acolyte requires above and beyond within the faith as prelate and inner circle are described as "privileged" ranks.

After Acolyte it's all through a mix of merit, actions, roleplay, leadership qualities, etc. It also greatly depends on my faith manager having gotten reports or witnessed such events.

[Raona]

I don't think bald-face asking is appropriate, though praying might be, as might be hinting of a desire to do more to serve. But only do so if you are prepared to stand up to scrutiny and perhaps critique...and to follow through with any new obligations that are sent your way!

When Maybel was the Lawkeeper (we're Tyrrans), I never promoted on my own, but I would bring people to her attention, mostly based on their being an exemplar of the ideals of the faith, true to their vows (if any), a role model for others in the faith, and the sort of person we would want to have representing and speaking for the Church. Individual events or actions would never be enough for promotion (though they might suffice for DEmotion, if grave enough) - we looked for a pattern of action and thought over time.

Perhaps the best approach is to have someone put in a good word for you with the church leadership - mention how you have helped or guided them, or how you represented the church well in this or that. But make sure it is true...and that the church respects the person doing the reporting!

Also, appreciate that your own interpretation of church doctrine and dogma may not align perfectly with that of the current church leadership. You can change to adopt their views...or argue they are wrong (with obvious and difficult, if not dire, consequences). But rare is the high priest that is going to reward you for doing your what you think your deity wants, when they don't agree with your take on things. (The deity always stands in a position to overrule and decide the matter, mind you...but there, I'd certainly not quibble with any edict! [Duh!])

[Gwain]

I still clings to the tenants associated with the old faith system, that as long as you are faithed, you are a member of said faith and that should be enough. Even with this fact though, there are player characters that will never be satisfied until they are at the highest rank possible and there will be those just satisfied to be part of a faith.

With this in mind I can say that faith levels after acolyte should only be filled because of merit, effort and attitude and all these should be measured icly. I also knowledge that any deity has the right to advance any faith member they see fit, since it is their faith, no explanation needed.

Until said faith advancement is decided, any faith member should be content with their lot, they should strive to do their faith works and even icly strive for rewards and position if called for by their rp, but they should not expect it. I've dealt with players as a FM, demanding for promotions because they've been members for so long, then when they've been promoted, doing nothing to prove they were worth the effort. In contrast to members of lower ranks or newer members working as hard as possible in the spirit of their faith rp.

The myriad of issues related to being promoted, including faithing characters in a faith with no clear leadership do come to mind as valid reasons to desire promotion, but it still should remain something sought after with ic works and effort and then and only then, if there is a great need for a new faith leader or high ranking personage.

My best advice to faith managers is to consider the following for candidates of a higher rank:

• -Ethos - Do they encompass what a leader of the faith should be? Do they work towards tirelessly promoting the faith? Why promote someone that only joined to get loot and supp items?
  
  -Time -Have they been members long enough for a promotion?
  
  -Desire - Do they have any desire or dedication to the rp? -Are they present and well known?

Personally I find players that claw and complain about their characters not being at the highest echelon of faith to be largely undeserving. I believe that working towards something as best as possible is reward enough. No one ever became inner circle by complaining about it or pinning for it. The ones that did, grew in faith based on the needs of a deity or the decision of a faith manager icly. If they oocly pressured said manager or attempted to gain prominence unscrupulously (or unicly depending on their alignment or ethos) then they simply cheapened the whole process. I certainly have more respect for those that are content in their own works and station that earn promotion through hard work than those that see it as an ooc mark of 'uber greatness'.

Finally, I will point out that the higher levels of faith don't necessarily grant any special rewards of powers outside of rp. The ranks mostly are key for faithing and questing. In the end one still needs the aid of a FM to faith someone. Some would even say that to be content with one's lot in life is a far better thing than scheming and coveting the position of others (This of course varies because some faith rp's call for scheming to go to the top of the pile)

[Aveline]

For me, I'm not going to promote just anyone up to even acolyte. To me, people have to work for it. First you have to be an active participant in the game and in the faith. If you've been a member of the faith for five real life years, I don't care if you only log the character when there are faith meetings and such. That is one of my pet peeves really. If you want advanced in the faith you need to actually play the character. Also, you need to actually play that character as a member of the faith. When people are going out for that symbol, boy they are all about the teachings of that faith, spouting them off to anyone that will listen. But for some, once they get it, they never mention those values again. And the only times you see those people doing anything faith related on their own is when it comes to a faith meeting. If I see someone trying to have an active part within the faith, and doing things specifically for the faith, I'm more likely to promote that person. I like to see people getting involved in the faithing process, getting out there to see those hopefuls and gathering new members. Interacting with the other members of the faith. If you do some of these things and play the character regularly, I might advance you.

I would probably advance more people in general to acolyte but here is my thinking.. You enter the faith and you are an initiate. You are a little goody two-shoes member and you get promoted to acolyte. Oh, everyone loves you and you suck up to the FM so you are now a prelate. That is generally where I am going to stop promoting people. To me, inner circle is a really really big deal. Just think about what the name says 'inner circle'. You are pretty close with your god that that point. I don't want to see 10 inner circle members on a faith list unless it is a huge faith. You are one step away from actually running the faith. In my eyes prelate is a pretty big deal, and it is going to take some MAJOR shows of dedication to get past that point. So seeing as how that leaves most people with only two promotions going to happen with their characters, I'm less inclined to just bump everyone up to acolyte. And I generally try to spread those promotions out over time. It may take well over one real life year just because I think we should try to give characters something to work for.

I don't know though, it can be hard to try to balance it all out. I try to balance that out some by just being available and making sure I try to catch people when they are doing good for the church and handing out the blessings. And I try to give the ones who are doing good lots of praise. That being said, it stands to reason that only those members that I see regularly are going to get promoted. Hard for me to promote someone when I never see their RP. Not fair perhaps, but it is the nature of things. And by seeing regularly, I do not mean characters that interact with my FM character. When I am on other characters I still try to keep an eye on what various people of that faith are doing. I may not be able to really say anything about it ICly when I'm back on my FM, but normally I'll say something like word has spread about how much that certain character has been doing in the name of the faith. Though in my defense on that last point, I don't think I've ever had trouble interacting with anyone timewise. I'm around a lot so that shouldn't ever be an issue.

I don't know if this helped at all, I worked on this in between RP sessions, but it a little about how I look at this particular issue.

[Shabanna]

Awesome! thanks for all the input its good to see different opinions and ideas. I thank you all for taking time to respond to my post!
Banna

[Nysan]

Personally, I don't put much stock in alot of the ranks. Stuck in the old ways, I suppose.

Main reason I don't is my IC experiences. Inner circles tend to stand out since most can assign faith quests and their faith habbits tend to reflect this responsibility. However, most the time I can't tell a prelate from an acolyte by their IC behavior so they all end up being "members of that faith" to me. Not saying anyone is RPing poorly or anything. I just don't see a notable difference. Same with my characters. I have a prelate, an acolyte, and various others. Doubt you could tell which is which without looking at the faith list.

Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with it either. Well, for me I don't. I am not sure how other faiths approach ranks below inner circle. If they give certain responsibilities or tasks to prelates, then maybe I would expect a bit more. I haven't experienced that in the few faiths I am active in so there is no "higher standard" to hold any other rank besides FM and inner circle to, in my eyes.

Umm, guess it boils down to how FMs and imms value their given faith ranks. Can't blame a prelate for acting like an acolyte if the only difference between the two is a title.

[Jaenoic]

I've taken a very hierarchical approach to the faith levels, myself. Each level has its privileges and duties, and has authority over the ranks below it. For example, an initiate is charged with learning more about the faith, putting into practice what they have learned, etc. An acolyte is one who has been a member of the church for some span of time, and they are charged with deciding where in the church they might serve(guardian, teacher, champion, etc). Prelates are more responsible for teaching initiates and hopefuls and help spread the church as a whole(by preaching, recruiting, building temples etc). Inner circles are champions who help manage the faith, they are the right-hands of the faith managers. They can quest but ultimately it is up to the FM to decide on initiation. An inner circle clearly knows their role in the church and has been working to develop that role for many years.

What merits a promotion in my eyes is combination of time served, sincerity in practicing, and merits done for the church. Time served is self explanatory. Sincerity means have they had doubts, practiced idly, or been lax in developing themselves and their faith. Merits done for the church include striking down faith enemies, building temples and shrines, writing dogmatic pieces, and teaching hopefuls and initiates.

That's my take on it!

[Isaldur]

Touching briefly on what Nysan said about his own approach and Gwain's about church ethos and dogma I'd also like to point out that it would vary by God as well.

More militaristic styled faiths like Helm, Torm, Tyr, Bane, Tempus etc would definately approach advancement differently than faiths that are more chaotic and where leadership is typically held through different reasons than strict adherence to rules and regs. Advancement may not even matter so much in faiths where there is no true heirarchy other than survival of the fittest (Cyric, Malar, etc) or just plain "survival" i.e. Tymorans taking fatal risks in dungeon delves.

Raona mentioned faith schisms but those work very differently in FK than FR. In Forgotten Realms you already have multiple faiths, and the different branches themselves jockeying for superiority from their respective part of the Realms in the face of no singular leader, Helm and Oghma are great examples of this. Helm's faith is near splitting point due to no High Pontiff for hundreds of years, and then from the actions of the faith in Maztica.

In FK that's a bit different. You have coded NPCs and churches spread across the realms, but for the most part unless they outright say "I'm only local to this one area" most faith managers that are PC's are treated as running the -entire- faith across the width of Faerun and beyond. That's quite a bit of power spread across a large area, and not very pliant with schism RP. To sum it up, a true split in the faith can only happen when the God doesn't pick sides between two factions that are not strong enough to wipe one another out.

[Kallias]

It will vary between gods. It will vary between promotee and promoter.

In a polytheistic religion where the gods are /known/ to exist, faith isn't the hard part - everyone has faith in FR (even the atheists have faith the beings exist, but just think they're mortals who rose to that power). This is where the political nature of the system differs drastically from our real life faith hierarchies.

I disagree with Gwain's notion that you should just be happy being in the faith. That may work for certain personalities, but any PC with an ounce of ambition within the church should be expected to push for promotion. It isn't something that is disrespectful. It happens in every facet of life in every arena. When you deserve something, and you want it, you press to get it - whether you're humble and work harder for the promotion, prideful and more vocal about the promotion, or kind of a weasel and get all passive aggressive about the promotion. The nature of the faith interaction is one much more political than how we'd think of religious hierarchies in real life, especially at the high ranks where the personal stakes are large.

Tempus for example, is one that demands physical prowess and individual merit - this creates an atmosphere of self confident prima donnas...it'd almost be unusual if these heroes of Tempus didn't press for more responsibility.

Torm/Helm: put more stress on the collective over the individual, large scale warfare compared to skirmishes, those who rise in rank are easy choices for the leaders of the faith, because they're the people who have the heart of the men and women who follow them...whether it's a quiet leadership of example or tried and true tactics. And within these two similar faiths ambition is fostered, but the risk of promoting someone undeserving is great due to the lives of those who he'll then lead.

You can go through every faith and pick out the nature of the religion and the general hierarchy structure and see how it would react to someone asking/demanding/petitioning for more responsibility in the religion - I'd go so far to say, that only evil religious leaders (or petty, Sune) would actively work against someone genuinely trying to get in a position to do more for their god...but that has more to due with the atmosphere of in fighting in evil faiths (which often the god encourages).


If you're a leader of anything, and someone under you says "I want more responsibility". You either make them prove that they can handle it, or you give it to them. How can a leader see ambition in those under him and think it's a bad thing?

I always suggest that if your PC's faith leaders don't respect your PC the way your PC believes it deserves, to leave. It's nothing more than a faction of ideals. Not being faithed in game doesn't mean you don't believe in gods, it just means you're not partaking in the religious hierarchy of the god...since it was long ago established that being faithed is much more than just being a follower. You may be turning over your responsibilities to someone else, but if you don't have any responsibilities - then who gives a crap?

---------
What Gwain describes as proper etiquette is perfect for Ilmater...the faith that most closely resembles the episcopate atmosphere of modern Catholic churches in America. Poor, quiet natured, forgiving, and content.

[Gwain]

Since most of what I said has been taken out of context or applied to IC principles in the previous post. I will make it clear and concise in summary here. I don't take any offense at the directed attacks intentional or otherwise, but to defend my views I will clarify them to the wider audience.

Its important to note that most of the examples I gave stem from experiences with people asking out of character to be promoted in their faith. Ie, putting OOC pressure on an Faith Manager is what I see as poor to do. In Character I could care less as it varies from faith to faith. I find that players should be content out of character to have their player characters in a faith as full members, but I don't mind them clawing each other's eyes out in character to gain position as long as they do it icly. People that constantly apply, people that scheme through OOC channels or do things that contradict their RP or abuse the system should not be considered for any higher ranks because they are simply not worth the trouble. Again this applies to OOC situation and has no context on IC situation to clarify.

I can say this with some authority since I was and FM during when the faith level system was introduced. I was pressured OOC by long term members to grant higher positions. Some of those that were given these positions did not contribute much to the faith and were eventually demoted. I am firmly in the mindset that faith levels, though OOC in practice should only be given out for IC reasons. It is just not something to ask for here or in an OOC avenue of the mud.

"I don't care if you've been a faith member since the fall of Netheril, if you can't contribute or even follow an ethos, you really should not expect to become more than an acolyte. Unless you earn it."

[Nysan]

Ewww... military faiths.

Nice to see variation in opinions in this thread. How dull would it be if all faiths were run the same way? The amount of applications for uncoded gods would skyrocket! hehe.

But seriously, I am glad to see other faiths are run different ways. For the most part, I enjoy how the 4(5 with uncoded) faiths I have characters in are run, but it is hard to picture Tyr's faith run the same way as Waukeen's or Talona's. That would be too weird and honestly, it would take some fun out of it all.

[Kallias]

My mistake Gwain, I read those with the presumption that you were speaking of PC's, not players. To me only characters are members of faiths, and only characters have "their rp".

I still clings to the tenants associated with the old faith system, that as long as you are faithed, you are a member of said faith and that should be enough. Even with this fact though, there are player characters that will never be satisfied until they are at the highest rank possible and there will be those just satisfied to be part of a faith.

Until said faith advancement is decided, any faith member should be content with their lot, they should strive to do their faith works and even icly strive for rewards and position if called for by their rp, but they should not expect it.

Obviously, you shouldn't use OOC pressure to gain IC status.

[Gwain]

Misunderstandings can happen in delicate topics, think nothing of it.

[Shabanna]

Just to clarify, My original post was in reference to IC situations and in no way meant to touch on applications or OOC anything.

I was strictly referring to IC means... I happen to be an FM and of course I get a good bit of OOC pressure from people to promote. I have had people I have never seen log... even once( and when fingered get a date on them of like 2007), log on and say 5 years ago I was such and such so I need to be promoted today ( no rp with me asking how they can make nice or what they can do to reach said goal) So yes I understand the issue with being nattered.

I am referring in my former post here to people who are long standing faith members who are already at acolyte or relate. I was curious to know how other FMs and the admins go about this. If they had a specific criterion etcetera. In my experience, some people are actually afraid to bring the subject up icly as its sort of a hush hush thing... afraid they will upset the fm oocly. That is why I asked in the forums if anyone had any input, as I thought it a good place to get more sources... I thought it a good place to discuss this openly. Personally I think taking the opinion of just one person and making it canon is a mistake so I came to the forums... to get a consensus. I was happy to see some share in a positive open manner.

[Gwain]

I will reiterate that icly a faith manager needs to decide if it is the right thing to do, for the faith. Because anything a high ranking follower does that is damaging to the faith will come back to haunt them. If you have an active imm above you that decides rankings, you should accept their decisions, if you don't you as an FM have the right to decide, just be prepared to be questioned on poor decisions later. There is certainly no rush to decide on a ranking, you can take your time to decide. If a follower is demanding, you should take such into account when making your decision.

[Nysan]

Promotions are not a right. They are an earned privilage. Honestly, I see no reason to be pushy about faith rank promotions. If you are acting right, you will get treated right. I've seen acolytes arrange fund raisers, hold massive faith-based RPs, tons of faith related stuff. Folks don't need a title, or even a symbol, to RP. Thats all in their head. If they want to do faith quests and accept members, inner circle stuff, they should have the patience and understanding to sit back and relax.

Maybe, just maybe, there is a time to keep on something... in the case of an inactive FM or concern that an inner circle did not relay a request to FM/IMM (folks get busy IRL, happens). Still, its a respectful request. Demanding never ends well. Honestly, I view anyone demanding a promotion the same as someone demanding I use the reward command. Makes no sense at all to me.

[Kallias]

I view anyone demanding a promotion the same as someone demanding I use the reward command

One is in character and the other is out of character (reward being ooc). Demanding a rank promotion is no different than demanding a promotion at work. People do it all the time. Just be prepared to go somewhere else where your work is appreciated (in your PC's eyes), if they deny you.

We're playing incredibly motivated, self confident, able body and mind champions. As common as it is for an athlete to demand a trade/contract negotiation, it'd be just as common for a PC to demand a promotion. If you're the kind of faith leader who doesn't like ambitious heroes, you can deal with not having any after they all leave from no one ever getting promoted...but it's double edged for the individual, they can get black balled by like minded orgs/faiths and they'll be forced into nothing or something they don't wholly have their heart behind.

Anyway, that's my advice to players in the faith system. The ambitious are ambitious. There is absolutely nothing wrong in giving ultimatums to your leaders, from an RP standpoint. There will always be work for the doers of great deeds

[Nysan]

I realize one is IC and one is OOC, still doesnt make sense to demand either. And I mean demand as in telling them to do it. Ambition is one thing. Telling your boss your getting a promotion or else is usually career suicide. Guess we have different ideas on what 'demand' is. Can force the issue and still be respectful.

[Kallias]

Telling your boss your getting a promotion or else is usually career suicide

When you're the talent, you always have work. Adventurers in FR are the talent.

My point is, it goes both ways. If an FM is trying to teach a "lesson" of some kind by holding off on a promotion or making them jump through a ton of hoops, it may pay off by the PC recognizing the lesson in the end and benefiting - it also may backfire on the FM and the adventurer leaves for someplace that caters to his/her ego. Every PC has an ego, they all want to be treated as they believe they are deserved. It's a two way street. If it was always "the FM is always right" it'd be boring for both the FM's and the PC's in the faith - PC's should respond positively to being treated the way they want to be, and negatively for being treated in a way they don't want to be. The FM should gauge the personality of the new member and decide the best tact in dealing with his talent. If the FM is so rigid as to say that all faith members will be treated exactly the same in these matters, they better produce a very special product that make the talent /want/ to conform to how they do things for everyone. Helm is a perfect example. People join Helm because they want to be what that religion creates...and they do it well.

Helm is the exception. But even then a wayward Helmite would be gobbled up by a number of faiths eager to have someone with that skill set. The adventurers are resources for the faith. Faiths hate losing them. They're public and people look to them as shining examples of what it means to be one (whether it's ethos accurate or not). Losing a public figure like an adventurer in a faith is a black eye.

The game puts so much stress on the repercussions of leaving a faith, but no repercussions on the faith losing a huge public figure. It's an old mindset and should evolve to a more realistic and dynamic causality.