Responsible Trading

[Nysan]

Stumbled across something that had me scratch my head and I thought it would be a great discussion point.

I found a merchant in a civilized, goodly city with hide armor crafted from the skin of a humanoid in their stock. This gave me pause. I'm not questioning the crafting of humanoid-skinned armor. There are many IC reasons for this practice.

What has me head-scratching is would a shopkeeper, in a goodly/civilized city, buy such an item from someone? Orc camp, sure. Westgate or Keep, debatable. I could even see the Pirate Ilses taking that leap. But a goodie goodie city like Silverymoon or Waterdeep? I just don't see it.

So, is it alright to sell armor crafted from humanoids anywhere/everywhere or does the old "just because you can, doesnt mean you should" rule take effect? Thoughts?

[Gwain]

There are two arguments I can think of:

The first is that in character, it would not be possible to sell armour made that way to a goodly/neutral merchant in a city of the same agenda openly. They would probably refuse it. It can be assumed that the character was aware of this and still proceeded based on their in character rp, or even, the character was not aware and just sold the armour casually.

The second, is that the character judged the armour to not be apparent. It is debateable to judge what humanoid armour looks like without the characteristic of knowing its origins. Tanned leather would vary depending on the tone and consistancy of the stock it originated from. If the stock is disguised or dyed, then it can fool most people.

I usually lean towards the first, since we have code in place to label the armour, we have the option of reacting or ignoring depending on the situation. Therefore its debateable and remains something to be discussed and eventually resolved.

[Raona]

In my own view, this is deep into the grey area of "just because the code lets you, doesn't mean it's OK." I think it borders on an OOC violation, and would be surprised if it didn't lead to some serious repercussions, at least ICly, if an Imm saw it happening. Gwain does a fine job of laying out both sides of the argument, though.

My stance is underwritten by the fact the object description is "hide armor crafted from the skin of a humanoid", which implies to me that is what everyone sees it as and considers it to be. The merchant is selling it as such, and so I assume that is the impression of it they have. Just because NPC merchants are not coded to be savvy enough to report/react to/refuse to buy items that clearly mark the seller as morally abhorrent does not mean they ICly would.

[Hrosskell]

For the sake of the other side of the argument:
I don't make leather armor myself, but as far as I know there's not an option about how the product you make gets labeled--it just does. A character, knowing that no one in their right mind would buy something advertised as people-skin but wanting to sell it (for what ever reasons, complex or simple), wouldn't brand his armor "made from 100% human." Couldn't this be considered a "just because code doesn't help you, doesn't mean you can't" scenario, rather than the other way around? It's kind of like eating bites of food while RPing in a tavern setting, or cutting your hair. The only difference is you make money off of doing something evil.

[Brar]

Just want to add my comments about leatherworking, having done leatherworking in real life when I was young, one thing I can say is that it is very difficult to identify the origin of a leather piece once it is tanned properly. There is no easy way to say if it is from a cow or a fox (I am speaking of tanned leather here) or even a human if you are not a specialist in it.
Just look how chinese use dog or cat leather and label it cow leather and it goes unnotice. One things that can give away the origin of the leather is the color, yet you can dye leather if you want and it is not a complicated process, it only requires flowers, water and a bucket (used to make pink frog leather to scare my little sister...).
Perhaps the introduction of a coloring to leather instead of the race it comes from and a dying process (before crafting, after crafting it is far more complicated) would be nice and you can't add the origin of the leather when you appraise it instead of when you see it for example.

Yet, would it worth the coding time? That I don't know and have not set my mind on an answer yet.

However, I can't see how hide can be anything else than hide of a yeti, or hide of a human as it is untreated and only dried on the sun.

That's my opinion only of course.

Brar

[Mele]

If I'm recalling correctly, any ranger caught slicing humanoids, let alone making armour from them was removed from the guild by the council without question.

So I would think ANY goodie, ranger or not, better make sure what they're slicing because it's probably not going to have a very good IC reaction!

[Dapher]

Just for clarification on Mele's statement. There are evils that can slice and make armour from whatever they choose. But yes, any ranger caught slicing humanoids is in deep doo doo. And honestly I guess it is just me but that armour being sold could have been an honest mistake. I have in the past accidentily sold a breastplate with the symbol of Shar on it to a merchant in Waterdeep not even thinking about it. I bought it back a day later when I realised what had happened. But sometimes things slip your mind.

[Nysan]

Glad to see various opinions on this topic.

In regards to the Chinese cat/dog leather comment, this falls into my thoughts on places like the Keep or Westgate accepting such leather. Merchants from these areas likely wouldn't care what material it is, as long as it would turn a profit. Maybe even a small village shop, since they might not be worldly enough to identify various materials. But, Waterdeep or Silverymoon merchants would be more choosy in their purchases.

I would think any established merchant that trades in leather armors regularly would develop appraising skills, able to determine quality and perhaps origins of various leathers or at the vary least get it appraised by someone. Trade is their lives, after all. What merchant wouldn't familiarize themselves with their wares? The more they know about their wares, the better they can price them. I have relatives that trap part-time as a hobby and they could recite the properties of animal hides within a few weeks, because the more they knew about the hides the better their profits became.

A long-time shopkeep in Silverymoon or Waterdeep would at least have some idea of the properties of leather/hides presented to them... especially the merchant that inspired this thread. He's not exactly some unnamed innkeeper NPC.

I don't consider this a problem that needs a code change to fix. There is nothing wrong with elf hide armor or ogre leather armor. It more a matter of defining what is and what is not appropriate to sell in a goodly city. The playerbase is responsible enough not to need code safeguards to hold their hand everywhere. Drawing this out of the grey area and agree on it, one way or the other, should be enough.

[Nysan]

No idea who sold the armor to the merchant, on purpose or accidentally. Mele's belief is correct, there are rules against goodly folks slicing humanoids. So, I assume it was sold by an evil with slice or someone who found it, bought it, whatever from somewhere.

Mistakes happen, but for the sake of discussion, I assumed the seller sold it on purpose. Whatever their reasons, it still worth covering.

[Brar]

Glad to see various opinions on this topic.

In regards to the Chinese cat/dog leather comment, this falls into my thoughts on places like the Keep or Westgate accepting such leather. Merchants from these areas likely wouldn't care what material it is, as long as it would turn a profit. Maybe even a small village shop, since they might not be worldly enough to identify various materials. But, Waterdeep or Silverymoon merchants would be more choosy in their purchases.

I agree that if they know they would not buy it, yet they have to know it.
As long as the adjective is clearly saying it is humanoid, then it is assumed that everyone who see it know where it comes from, hence no selling in goodly cities. (And yes, FR Waterdeep is more merchants than good, blabla we are in FK and not in FR )

I would think any established merchant that trades in leather armors regularly would develop appraising skills, able to determine quality and perhaps origins of various leathers or at the vary least get it appraised by someone. Trade is their lives, after all. What merchant wouldn't familiarize themselves with their wares? The more they know about their wares, the better they can price them.
A long-time shopkeep in Silverymoon or Waterdeep would at least have some idea of the properties of leather/hides presented to them... especially the merchant that inspired this thread. He's not exactly some unnamed innkeeper NPC.

I would say yes for leather selling merchant, furrier and the like. No to general store which I see more as bazzar and sell it all.

I have relatives that trap part-time as a hobby and they could recite the properties of animal hides within a few weeks, because the more they knew about the hides the better their profits became.

Hides yes, tanned leather is completely different. Yet someone who works it should be able to determine it's origin.
Yet, it is a change that "could" be made even if I doubt it is worth the effort and time, as long as it is the other way in the game we should stick at reacting to that.

I don't consider this a problem that needs a code change to fix. There is nothing wrong with elf hide armor or ogre leather armor. It more a matter of defining what is and what is not appropriate to sell in a goodly city. The playerbase is responsible enough not to need code safeguards to hold their hand everywhere. Drawing this out of the grey area and agree on it, one way or the other, should be enough.

I'm don't think so it needs any change either, but for me it is a plain no for selling as it is today. As long as it is clearly specified the origin in the description/adjective, then we should assume everyone who see it know where it comes from.
Now even if there is a change and you can't know the origin of leather while seeing it, the one who did it know where it comes from and it changes nothing for goodies even thinking about slicing humanoids, they should be expelled, dismembered, turned to evil, half buried in the middle of a group of 3 years old goblins, ect...

So to resume, I am against selling non suitable objects in non suitable areas, this goes farther than leather made things and think we should stick to what the description/adjective says as long as there is no change to it.

I could see a change in the leather making system to remove it's origin (leather, not hide). Yet I fail to see it as necessary, just a possible addition (I place that on the same level as separating slice skin and slice for food)

Brar

[Nysan]

Confused on if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. I'll go with agreeing, but with different approaches.

[Brar]

Confused on if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. I'll go with agreeing, but with different approaches.

Agreeing, while understanding why it could (and not should) be changed but don't think it is worth the effort changing

Yeah I can be hard to understand at times, that's my french nature

[Nysan]

Confused on if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. I'll go with agreeing, but with different approaches.

Agreeing, while understanding why it could (and not should) be changed but don't think it is worth the effort changing

Yeah I can be hard to understand at times, that's my french nature

Lack of sleep and pain killers on my end doesn't help the comprehension process. No worries.

[Mele]

Just for clarification on Mele's statement. There are evils that can slice and make armour from whatever they choose. But yes, any ranger caught slicing humanoids is in deep doo doo. And honestly I guess it is just me but that armour being sold could have been an honest mistake. I have in the past accidentily sold a breastplate with the symbol of Shar on it to a merchant in Waterdeep not even thinking about it. I bought it back a day later when I realised what had happened. But sometimes things slip your mind.

That doesn't really clarify what I said - though I did directly say "goodie" EVIL's would also get a good handful of drama ICly if the right people saw them, too. :)

[Raona]

The point that once tanned, leather is more difficult to identify the source of is well taken. Our code currently maintains that information, in that untanned skin produces
a hide helm of a lizard man
while tanned skin (becomes the tanned hide of a lizard man) produces
a leather helm of a lizard man

I could see dropping the source information from the leather object, making it only determinable with successful appraisal...but also concur that it's probably not worth the time it would take to do it.

But I do think hide armour (as opposed to leather, particularly if dyed) would be pretty clear with respect to its origins, whoever was looking at it.