Disarm

[Kallias]

Disarm is currently coded in a way that isn't up to snuff with 3.0.

The problem with this being, is that attack bonus is not the primary factor. This means that a creature with attack bonus of 1 (average level one warrior assume) has a significant chance of disarming a creature with attack bonus of 20 (average level twenty warrior).

I understand that this is a skill and may not be easily changed.

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What I propose:

Disarm skill level providing modest pluses as to not diminish the skill progression aspect. GM providing +4, for instance.

The mechanics for 3.0 (given same weapon/creature size, which I don't believe requires being addressed in our mechanics) are d20 + attack bonus vs d20 + attack bonus. Victory of aggressor results in disarmed defender. Victory of defender results in AoO (sans aggressor feats) and wasted action by aggressor.

How I feel would best suit FK:

d20 + attack bonus + disarm bonus vs. d20 + attack bonus + grip bonus (GM in grip resulting in same +4 bonus as GM disarm). Victory of aggressor results in defender losing weapon to inventory. Victory of defender resulting in AoO (sans aggressor feats) and wasted full round of combat by aggressor.

The change in disarming to inventory as opposed to floor would represent that in 3.0 the disarmed weapon always lands in the 5ft square of defender (requiring then a bull rush special attack if one is dead set on moving into the square...another AoO). I feel this would appropriately represent that the defender will always be closest to disarmed weapon (I believe this is for mechanics balance).
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The bottom line is, in disarm's current state, there are no tangible negatives for attempting a disarm if you have the feat, and minimal risk if you not. This problem is magnified during full speed PvP combat where PC's are doing whatever they can to win, or in areas where NPC's are coded to disarm as much as time allows.

I understand it may not be a simple change, but I feel it necessary.

If the change is time consuming, I propose a band-aid solution:

Only allow 1 disarm attempt per combat.

Any suggestions or concerns are encouraged. I'd enjoy hearing anyone's opinion on how our current disarm mechanics are superior to 3.0's.

[Keltorn]

One thing in your suggestion caught my attention, and that's having the disarmed weapon go into inventory instead of being dropped. While you're right about weapons in 3.0 getting dropped in your square and, therefore, you'd be the closest to your own dropped weapon, there's one little detail to remember.

Picking up an item off the ground provokes an attack of opportunity. If I disarm someone in tabletop D&D, I'm usually counting on the fact that I'm going to get a free attack on them or they're going to go on without their favorite weapon. As it is now, I don't think that's reflected in FK's system, though perhaps it doesn't need to be since you're bound to make some unarmed attacks automatically while picking your weapon back up, all of which will likely provoke more attacks of opportunity.

Also, it takes more time to pick a weapon off the ground and wield it than it does to just re-wield something from your inventory. If the system were changed to your suggestion, wouldn't disarm be completely thwarted by someone having "WIELD WEAPON" ready to go? You get disarmed, you put that in, and you're back in the fight with an incredibly minimal amount of time lost. Make an alias of it, and you don't even have to be ready. This could maybe be fixed by having a short lag time for the person that was just disarmed. Make them delay rearming themselves just a little bit.

[Kallias]

Picking up an item off the ground provokes an attack of opportunity. If I disarm someone in tabletop D&D, I'm usually counting on the fact that I'm going to get a free attack on them or they're going to go on without their favorite weapon. As it is now, I don't think that's reflected in FK's system, though perhaps it doesn't need to be since you're bound to make some unarmed attacks automatically while picking your weapon back up, all of which will likely provoke more attacks of opportunity.

I agree with you. I don't believe it needs to be represented because of the many AoO's the aggressor will receive.

Also, it takes more time to pick a weapon off the ground and wield it than it does to just re-wield something from your inventory. If the system were changed to your suggestion, wouldn't disarm be completely thwarted by someone having "WIELD WEAPON" ready to go? You get disarmed, you put that in, and you're back in the fight with an incredibly minimal amount of time lost. Make an alias of it, and you don't even have to be ready. This could maybe be fixed by having a short lag time for the person that was just disarmed. Make them delay rearming themselves just a little bit.

Fair point. I like the delay idea, full round or FK equivalent. Sans that, going to the ground is fine, just so long as it's commonly understood that the aggressor shouldn't grab it.

But lets not get bogged down in AoO's. They're generally minimal in FK. PC's have such high HP and there are so many attacks per combat - AoO's aren't a major factor in combat in FK. Which is why I said there is minimal risk for an aggressor who doesn't have improved disarm.

The problem is disarm being too easy to perform for PC's/NPC's who should not be successful in the attempt. With item loss policy's that aren't sympathetic (required by necessity, I admit) - it's too easy for a malicious player to ruin someone's day with no intention of roleplaying a solution for item retrieval.

[Athon]

I like Kallias's proposition for disarm. I also would support the weapon going to inventory for two reason:

One: To prevent the aggressor from grabbing it (although, not allowed, still possible).
Two: To reduce keystrokes.

I would like to see the weapon go to the inventory with a delay before re-arming. If it drops to the ground, it becomes a matter of keystrokes and the speed at which you can type should play as little factor as possible in a PvP situation (it can never be fully removed, especially for casters). An appropriate amount of delay and going to the inventory would be ideal in my opinion.

[Kallias]

There are a few places in game where the NPC aggressor's are coded to disarm every chance they can. If you're a game tester, go to one of these places and see how ridiculous it is. If you don't know of the places where the mobs disarm, send me a message and I'll tell you.

You can't go through one of those places and come out thinking that disarm, mechanically, is sound. Especially if you're a class that can't disarm first.

I just want to bring that up to stress that it isn't strictly a PvP issue.

[Selveem]

I'm not sure I get it.

Disarming is a _single_ melee attack. Thus, a player with five attacks can technically attempt to disarm five times per round if he devotes all his attacks to this action. That being said, I would like that using the disarm action DID drop a single attack from the person attempting it.

In D&D it is _not_ impossible to take your opponent's weapons like I'm reading posts in here.. There are multiple ways to accomplish this.

In FK, you only get one disarm per round and it lags you to hell for the entire round.

Realistically, though, in FK.. Disarm is not so horrible as it could be in D&D. At least in FK you don't have Combat Reflexes that is very unforgiving to disarmed opponents.

*Edited to add: I would agree with Kallias after reading the new post.. Mobs are annoying.

[Alvirin]

The problem with disarm is pretty much the same problem with any other spell you can cast in a fight while fighting, (although the harm with disarm is increased since AC seems to not be used to be determined the success/failure). The disarm maneouver takes you one standard action, and if successful it would take one standard action to your foe to ready it again, so you spend one turn and in return you have one turn of advantage, if you fail your opponent had a turn of advantage over you (you attempted to disarm him, but he made a full attack against you) and also gets a free (in actions) disarm attempt against you, pretty much balanced. The problem comes when you can fight and perform any other actions at the same time, a few hp lost in attack of opportunity it's no big deal but a whole turn lost is much worth of consideration, the implementation of D&D turns/action dynamics would cause characters to use combat maneouvers and casting spells more thoughtfully, as of now there is not any serious repercusion to spamming cure spells or disarms through a whole fight.

Best regards.

[Selveem]

It's an attack option. It doesn't take a full round to perform.

It's outlined in the Players Handbook 3.5 on page 155.

"As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent." Thus, it is not a full round action.

[Kallias]

But you'd never do it without your full attack bonus because you take such large penalties with each step down your numbered attack list. What is the point trying to disarm with your attack roll that is -15 from your normal attack?

Still not the point. The point is the mechanics are off. Either attack rolls are not being used as opposed rolls, or the disarm skill gives too large a bonus to the attack roll. Level 50 characters should be not disarmed by kobolds with 50% success.

[Selveem]

*nod* I agree with that completely. It was even more annoying when Mobs could pick up _your_ weapon when they were disarmed after disarming you or after you'd fumbled.