Domain Spells and Spell Levels

[Athon]

It seems that I am able to memorise certain domain spells within the same spell level. For instance, I can memorize multiple 'stone body' or 'earth reaver' spells as my domain spells in level 8. I don't have either of the spells trained.

Not all spells seemed to apply. From what I could gather, all the spells that I could learn (even if I had no learned them yet), would be able to be memorised more than once per spell level when they were done so as domain spells. Note: I was still limited to a total of 9 domain spells across my entire list of memorised spells. So this isn't gaining more than the allotted domain spells, just putting more than one domain spell into the same spell level.

[Athon]

It is my understanding that priests can memorize one domain spell per spell level - and that each spell level can only contain one domain spell (you can have one domain spell in level one, one in level two, one in level three, but never more than one per spell level). If this is true, I would like to propose a change to how the spell memorisation list shows up on screen. It would be something similar to this:

Code: Select all

Level 8 slots, (3/4) (Base:3, Item/Wis Bonus:0, Domain Bonus:1)   |  Domain Level 8
    Spell 1        Spell 2          Spell 3                       |  Domain spell 1
   <DOMAIN>           
Level 9 slots, (3/4) (Base:3, Item/Wis Bonus:0, Domain Bonus:1)   |  Domain Level 9
    Spell 1        Spell 2          Spell 3                       |  Domain spell 1
   <DOMAIN>                                                                                                                           

The <DOMAIN> denotes that one of your spell slots is fulfilled by having a domain spell. Furthermore, it can be color coded to show if you have the domain spell for that spell level memorised or not. Essentially, this change is modifying it so that your regular spells are in one list and your domain spells are in their own list, but still containing the structure of each spell level. I would find this highly beneficial in terms of managing my spell list.

Your thoughts?

[Athon]

Also, to build on this:

When I memorize one of the domain spells that I can end up learning later, I cannot seem to memorize all the spells in the slot. For example, I have:

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Level 9 slots, (3/4) (Base:3, Item/Wis Bonus:0, Domain Bonus:1)
    detect magic         restoration          stone body       
   ------------------

Stone body was memorized as a domain spell. However, it will not allow me memorize a regular (non-domain) spell in that slot. I have to forget stone body, memorize a regular spell in its place, and then redo 'mem domain stone body.'

From what I can gather, I believe the memming domain spells has issues with spells that can be learned at a later point.

[Eltsac]

for what I understood when memorizing spells (but didn't test it throughly), the last slot of a level is the one to contain the domain spell.
So you have to memorize all your normal spells first and keep the domain spell for your last memorize command for that level.
If you memorize your domain spell before having memorize all your normal spells for that level, the domain spell will fit in the first free spell slot and your last slot will be stuck because it can't contain anything else than a domain spell.

Can be tricky to memorize your spells.

If possible, I would go to a system like the one Athon just proposed on the game suggestion part of the forum.
The domain slot could be (graphicaly) separated from the normal slots of one level.
All the normal spell slots of a level should only be able to contain normal spells, and when you memorize your domain spell for that level, it will automaticaly fill the domain slot instead of the first free normal slot.

My thought about both threads at the same time :p

El & co.

[Khelebhzed]

I second this, it would make dealing with extra slots and their fluctuations (such as when recovering from death,) easier. It would also make it more distinctive between a domain granted spell and leaning the same spell separately.

[Athon]

I would find this to be immensely useful when it comes to managing my spell list. Especially when recovering from death or using wis/int bonuses to gain extra spells.

One thing I realized, though, is that the current spell list as it stands almost spreads across the entire 'horizontal buffer' that the game follows (80 chars wide). My proposition to amend this is to move the base/bonus spell information down a line.

[Raona]

Domain spells have been an ongoing point of some frustration, despite the flavour they add to things!
From my reading of the (long!) bug process on this issue, I think Mask could really use a well-thought out suggestion for something that might plug a lot of holes at once, rather than having to deal with one oddity here and one there.

I have no idea how practical it might be, but I'm getting the sense that people are suggesting clerics have two distinct spell and mem lists: domain and non-domain. Since only non-domain spells can be used for spontaneous casting, I don't think that, at least, would introduce a wrinkle. It may well be the case that separating the two completely might make things much easier on the code end. If so, can anyone see a reason it would be problematic on the player end? How should this look? Tack on the domain spells in the non-domain list, or show two distinct lists for Mem and the like?

For my reference: current bug report is 742

[Selveem]

Any chance we could get a quick breakdown of what the current issues are with the system in place? For example, "domain spells not always memorizing in proper (last) slot; domain spells being spontaneously converted into cure/cause spells..

Personally, I like Athon's suggestion; it was thought out well and it looks graphically pleasing.

I don't play my priests as much as my fighters, but I have to admit I've had a few hiccups myself here and there.

[Athon]

It seems like we're having some talks regarding domain spells in the bug reporting forum. I'd like to take the initiative and move the conversation regarding domain spells to this thread.

It is said that there have been on-going issues regarding domain spells and that Mask wants to do a complete fix to the issue instead of a change here, a change there, etc. Raona thinks that if we do indeed separate domain spells from non-domain spells, a lot of the issues (if not all) might be fixed. I am in favor of this; what do you all think? Would you like it? Do you see it causing a problem?

[Zasheir]

It is said that there have been on-going issues regarding domain spells and that Mask wants to do a complete fix to the issue instead of a change here, a change there, etc. Raona thinks that if we do indeed separate domain spells from non-domain spells, a lot of the issues (if not all) might be fixed. I am in favor of this; what do you all think? Would you like it? Do you see it causing a problem?

The one concern I would have is the one I already have with the memorization of domain spells. What sort of priority would domain spells get when you're recharging your spells? As it is now, domain spells must be the last spell memorized at each spell level. This means that they'll be the last regained when recharging, and they're the first to go when spontaneously casting. Ideally, you should be able to memorize them at whatever spot you want so as to give them whatever priority you feel is appropriate (for me, I'd want them coming back first since I love my domain spells).

What I'd like to know is, if we were to give domain spells their own seperate list, how would that change their recharge times? Will all your other spells have to be recharged before you'll start working on the domain spells? Or will it work like the abilities list where it refills seperately from your spells? I'd love to start getting those back faster.

As a side note, I think domain spells aren't eligible for spontaneous casting by D&D rules. Having them exempt from spontaneous casting by putting them on their own whole seperate list could fix a lot of little things.

[Athon]

D20 rules do dictate that domain spells cannot be used for spontaneous casting. So separating them in that manner will make it easier to see what you can spontaneously cast.

Secondly, I see domain spells as being your deity's 'preferred' spells. As such, you just memorize them first as well as cast them at an expert/master/GM level.

[Eltsac]

Maybe this thread could be merged with the "Separation of Domain Spells from Memorisation List" thread in game suggestions that is on the same subject ?

Anyway, I think codewise the normal spell list and the domain spell list could be handled separately. Could be easier as those spells are managed in a different way.
- when we memorize a domain spell, we use a slightly different command already ('memorize domain <spell>' instead of 'memorize <spell>', and we don't use all the memorize command options that can be used for normal spells)
- you can't fill your domain slot with a normal spell
- you can only memorize one domain spell per level (which will fill the domain slot), so no common spell slot for both list
- I think you can't (or shouldn't be able to) use your domain spell for spontaneous casting

In the interface, though, my personnal point of view is
- for the spells list, I like it the way it is, with domain spells displayed spread in each level
- for the memorized spells list, I would rather keep the domain slots spread in each level, but slightly separated from the normal spell slots to have something like

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Level 1 slots, (0/8) (Base:5, Item/Wis Bonus:2, Domain Bonus:1)
   ------------------   ------------------   ------------------
   ------------------   ------------------   ------------------
   ------------------  
         Domain spell   ------------------

Another point to raise as one mentioned on the other thread is the priority of domain spells on normal spells when recovering your spells.
I'm not sure about how it should be.

I hope I'm clear

El & co

[Raona]

Merged in post El and Athon suggested.

Problems with Domain spells currently:
1) Must be memorized last, or a slot is sacrificed. Even if memorized last, something that adds slots will have one slot unavailable if the domain spell is memorized
2) Domain spells can be memorized multiple times, using non-domain slots above their base level (D20 is unclear whether higher-level domain slots can be used for this, but non-domain slots definitely can not)
3) Domain spells should not be eligible for spontaneous casting, they currently are

That's all I'm currently aware of, based on bug tracking and my own recent attempts at testing.

[Eltsac]

About memorizing multiple times the same domain spell :

It will take the domain spell slots of the upper levels for the additionnal memorizing :
for exemple if you train twice your first level domain spell, the second one will take the second level domain slot (if that slot is free).
If you haven't memorized your other lvl 2 spells first, it will take the first free spell slot (refering to bug you listed as n1), but you won't be able to use several lvl 2 slots for your lvl 1 domain spell, and it will prevent you to memorize your level 2 domain spell as the slot is taken by the lvl 1 domain spell.

Hope I'm clear

El

[Khelebhzed]

The issues with separate lists would come down entirely how you managed them. Eltsac offered a nice way for the list to be set up.

The domain spells list could also perhaps be viewed separately with syntax like: 'domain memorization'

Your domain slots as a separate list means not having to memorize them last, and they can be managed easily from the basic list with the 'memorize domain ~' syntax.

Spontaneous casting should target the main spell list only.

I think each list should have it's own recovery time calculated independently, with domain spells taking longer as the list would be shorter.

The biggest attraction for me to this set up is that it clearly separates learned and domain spells. Where domain and learned spells over lap, they can be treated as different spells. You can practice and improve upon learned spells, where as when casting the same spells out of a domain slot it remains at its fixed skill level.

[Athon]

I just wanted to add another reason why this should be changed:

If you cast sagacity or gain a temporary boost in wisdom from other sources, you gain additional spell slots. However, you cannot memorize spells there since the last spot must be filled by your domain. That means forgetting your domain, memorizing the spell that you want, and then rememorizing your domain. And then your domain spells will be lost when you lose the bonus in wisdom, at which point you would need to reverse the process.

It's a lot of work and makes gains in wisdom to be very difficult for priests to manage.

[Zorinar]

I also believe that a change would be in order. I would propose the following:

1)Make domain spells their own spell list. Either a seperate graphical listing all together like, domain spells, domain memorize, etc.... or as previously mentioned, below the regular spells.

2)Keep domain spells free from spontaneous casting.

3)Let domain spells regenerate just like regular spells but in conjunction with the priests regular spell regeneration, not mixed in with them.. In other words let them regenerate as their own list, while the main spell list will regenerate spells just like it currently does.

4) Put Domain spells at GM. Its weird having domain spells stuck at journeyman while the player can learn the spell normally and grind it to GM when not a domain spell, thus making their Gods gifted spell to them weaker than their own personal version of it.

* bit off topic: 5) Add in a spontaneous casting config flag, so that if you dont want to eat up another spell that you really want to have on hand with a cure spell that ran out, you dont have to.

6) Make sure sagicity does not affect the domain spell list...

7) If domain spells are made into their own spell list/spellbook.....Add a domain spell cast keyword, like cast domain heal, so that the mud doesnt get confused about which spell you wanted to cast... the domain version of the regular spell list version.

I think that would clean up the priest spell issues nicely.

[Raona]

Thanks for all the suggestions, I think I almost have what I need to write a ticket.

The one I'm a bit iffy about is Zorinar's #4 - Perhaps domain spell mastery could be set by something related to faith? Favour, faith level, or a combination thereof?

[Eltsac]

Perhaps domain spell mastery could be set by something related to faith? Favour, faith level, or a combination thereof?

That refers back to a thread that came up a while ago about divine powers based on faith level...
viewtopic.php?f=77&t=12685

The faith favor is more representative of the favor the god(dess) has for the character, and thus is more likely to have some impact on the domain spell mastery. (compared to the faith ranking which is more a matter of social church activity, which is "mortal stuff")

Thing is... once you supplicate, your spell mastery goes back down, even if it's not completely IC.

El

[Brar]

The one I'm a bit iffy about is Zorinar's #4 - Perhaps domain spell mastery could be set by something related to faith? Favour, faith level, or a combination thereof?

I'm all up for favour, faith level scaling anything but social relationship just don't suits well in my opinion.

I mean..Elminster is Mystra's lover, and yet, faith level wise he sucks and never took part in anything faith managing related...

For me, faith level is your social postion in the faith, nothing to do with how your patron actually favours you.

Yet, it fails to work because of how you can go from very high in your patron favours and poof you suck because your patron gaves you an item in return to your service.
Perhaps do like alignment with a hidden value about your real favour which goes up and down but you can't really see it if you're not an imm. And a visible one representing your "in-stock" favour for supplicate and such.

Just an idea but I'm feeling like I'm hijacking a thread again :p

Brar