Spell/Skill/Feat Drive?

[Zorinar]

I really think this issue should take top priority. We have spell lists without the actual spells in the game! To me, this makes the wizard class incomplete. The wizard class has lots of hurdles here.

--Oh before I forget, all wizards are supposed to have scribe at level 1 in D&D. I think that should be implemented in game. If the other classes are going to get their goodies, wizards should get their's too.

Ok, onward with my characteristically long posts!

As we move towards D&D rules we have to understand that wizards in D&D don't have to train anything to GM. Here, when the spells are at Grandmaster they are at "normal" or d&d-like levels of power. (perhaps a slight tad stronger, but don't forget we have more HP here on our characters too) I wonder how many people realize just how hard it is to grand master a spell over say level 3..... I wonder if anyone knows the cost in coin and playing hours it takes.... just to be "normal." (I think some of you would be mind -boggled.) (And please don't tell me that it would make many years for a wizard to master a spell in real life, because it would take a warrior a lifetime to master just one or two weapon in real life, too) Wizards cannot even grandmaster their off school spells, which they have no such restriction in D&D.

Learning spells by scroll adds huge hurdles upon already large hurdles for a wizard player. Getting a spell at inept, then having to train it up is fine for lower level spells. At level seven, eight, nine... that makes it ridiculously impossible to make the spell decent. Brar, getting your level 9 spell to novice in 50 hours is not remarkable, try getting to adept. It will take you perhaps a year of constantly working at it unless you are here 24/7. Adept is not close to "normal." How long do you think it will take you to GM it? Realistically, it will be never. You will never be able to cast that spell as it was intended in D&D, ever.

I just don't like the learn by scroll method because you start off at inept. Also, I truly have never seen a level 3 or higher spell on a scroll from the new system. AND.... our trade and exchange ideals for the new randomized rewards system are just ideals. We don't have the player base to make it actually worthwhile yet, therefore we cannot have high expectations for it, just high hopes.

Our current "teaching" system leaves much to be desired. I think we need to look to the mud code for wizards getting their spells. In game methods seem to be the only solution that ensures they will get their spells and that they can train them up to something decent. Perhaps we can manage all the solutions given? I like the idea of having more higher level spells to learn from random scrolls, but I don't think that should be the main way we learn them. I like the idea of spell research, and I like the idea of more trainers and quest trainers....

Why not have level 9 spells only be taught with mini quest trainers?
How about add more trainers for spells up to level 8?
How about add research for all spells. Maybe, a wizard spends coin and enough comps for the spell to be cast once, and they get a single skill point per research, one research project per set amount of time, and research cannot raise the spell over a certain limit, like... amateur?

I don't know of a perfect solution, or if there is one but I really think that wizards are long overdue for some advancements because I think its important that all the classes be "finished." Wizards are not the only class that needs a face lift but we gotta start somewhere! There are a lot of spells not on the spell list and some spells on the list are not in game, all wizards should have scribe, and they need familiars.

[Brar]

Here, when the spells are at Grandmaster they are at "normal" or d&d-like levels of power.

I'm not sure about the code behind the spells, but if I'm not mistaking, that's assumption is not true.

I think it considers skill levelin FK as spell level in DnD (I'm not sure the same restriction applies (ie max10d6 for a fireball), so you don't have the spell as per dnd cannon at GM, at GM you cast it like a level 25 wizard in DnD.

Just a last clarification on my learning per scroll system because I think I explained it wrongly, the idea is that every time you can use the scrolls of spell you already know to gain raise your skilllevel in the spell of the scroll, exactly like typing the train command in front of a teacher, so please explain to me the difference with adding loads of teachers except that it is random and encourage trading and player to player interaction instead of roaming cities alone because I fail to see this difference.

Lastly, and then I think I'll quit this discussion after for I have said all I had to say, for me the stating that our player base is not big enough, our player base is not blabla enough, we don't have enough blabla to interact and exchange is just an excuse not to do it and stays lazy.
I played Magic with 5 friends, and we manage to trade between us for years with being tired of it, it is more a matter of will and effort rather than possibility.
In FK, I have 2 characters who are trading all the times for scrolls, potions and the like but very rarely anybody asks about it, the in game board are almost never used anymore but when it does it usually sparks interesting roleplay.
The last post mades at least 4 characters to initate a long term roleplay, but I think people need to take actions and not waits for everything falling from the sky and taking initiatives is somethign I rarely see this days from the players but a few (one?) (from me included, I'm as faulty as anyone)

I agree that a player should be able to do things alone, but not the "end game" and the biggest rewards (and for me, leveling his high level spells are just that, end game)... Or we have just what we have right now most of the time, a single player game where people separately plays at the same time.

I think we must encourage grouping and player to player interaction, a lot of job is done toward this (see the new interface, grouping, formation changes, ect) and that would be a step backward to simply add more pc to npc relation that makes you only wish to stay alone to travel faster and finds that sole teacher for the spells you want.

Making the rewards random would only make it so that the builders work is more valuable since you will want to do everything and not just the 3 quests that gives the hyped spells.
And let's be honest, if the staff took the time to code all teh randow tables we have (which are not all used yet, that I agree) then it's the least we can do to ask them to use it.

And yes, you haven't seen higher level spells in the game yet, but how many high level quest were added recently? Builders are only humans doing it for free in their spare time for your enjoyement, things are slow sometimes, I can't agree more. But I would rather see them spent their time on areas that are used rather than areas that nobody will cares about because all it gives is a spell that only one or two players would like to have.

Now I'm agree that no system is optimal, spell research sounds very nice, new spells per level too, and we very well could have all of that. But what I really dislike is the idea to roam all the places I already went to ten dozen times and that don't adds a bit to the adventuring sense of the game to find new trainers...
I would rather spends it adventuring and gets the thrills of the reward discovery and then trade what I have to what I need.

Also, if we really want to stick to DnD (but the casterlevel/skilllevel system), then there is no "trainers" for spells in DnD, you are stuck to the spells you learn when gaining a level and the scroll/spellbooks you find and can scribe in your own, and don't tell me every mage you encounter will let you write things from his spellbooks, not even for money.
And scribing costs you lots of gold and xp too in DnD, shoudl we implement that also?

As a dwarf would say: "I go",
Brar

PS: Someone could even begin to host exchange markets, or something similar it could be a very nice social roleplay from time to time.

[Mask]

Shall I set up different threads for each individual one to find out what's missing for what types?

That was really useful Selveem - thanks. If anyone would care to suggest trainers for some of the missing feats/skills/spells, please PM me.

Thanks.

[Brar]

considering the list I just done on the different topics, I probably haven't seen all the world, but I have looked in a fair number of place both above and under the ground.