Dwarven Misconception

[Athon]

Dwarves have a firm place in FK and are a blast to play. However, there is a certain perception to Dwarves that FK players as a whole tend to have and I feel that it's incorrect and it contributes to limiting Dwarven RP.

The perception is that Dwarves do not like to ride on mounts, do not like flying, and do not like riding in ships. I could not find a source for boats, but in FR, Dwarves have many pets, including mounts (more in a second), and they are not opposed to flying.

Mounts:
While a Dwarf mounting a horse is physically impractical, Dwarves are known to ride dire lizards, dire boars, and especially ponies. Some tribes of Dwarves ride dire bats (flying AND mounted!).

Flying:
As previously mentioned, some Dwarves ride on dire bats, which fly. Shield dwarves are also quite open to divine magics and if a spell is provided by their patron deity, then the Dwarf will not have any apprehension to it.

Misconception:
I'm not sure on the specific source for the misconception, but my guess is that the prime source for the Dwarven distaste of mounts/flying is from Tolkien/Lord of the Rings. Gimli was symbolic in his dislike for riding horses in the books and movies. This, compounded with the ongoing RP that Dwarves do not like to mount/fly/swim, has led to the point where we are now. This can be quite annoying when playing a Dwarf to travel around FK.


Solution:
I think that FK should take a stance to support the FR lore and emphasize that it is alright for Dwarves to ride mounts (appropriate mounts) and make use of their cleric spells (such as air walk).


And I don't want to offend anyone or be disrespectful, but please don't look down upon or be condescending when a Dwarf tries to explain what he's doing (in regards to this). Obviously the player is RP'ing how he sees Dwarves within FR lore.

[Khelebhzed]

I seem to recall many of these traits in Dragonlance dwarves, but they did not originate there certainly.

[Tyeslan]

I have read so many FR books and can't ever recall reading about any dwarves enjoying magic, or flying. Most of them couldn't stand it, and seemed to shy away from it.

Do you have any references to look at that might otherwise counter this? I can only think of one that was odd and that is the "Doodad" or druid in the Cleric/Catterly books.

[Brar]

The so-called thunder children were radical in comparison with their parents and during their lifetimes over the Era of Upheaval

I think this sums up what I think.. different times, different traditions.
What you describes is mostly post 3rd edition young dwarves.

Brar

[Athon]

I have read so many FR books and can't ever recall reading about any dwarves enjoying magic, or flying. Most of them couldn't stand it, and seemed to shy away from it.

Do you have any references to look at that might otherwise counter this? I can only think of one that was odd and that is the "Doodad" or druid in the Cleric/Catterly books.

I never said anything about magic. Dwarves from 3rd Ed+ (aside from Gold, I believe) are still very hesitant to embrace magic.

Flying is a more ambiguous definition. The source books say nothing against it other than Dwarves ride flying creatures (dire bats) and are open to divine magics - I see it being allowable within the scope of FK, given the time frame (post Times of Troubles, pre-Bane so not 4th ed but later than 3rd ed).

[Brar]

I don't think anybody ever said it was not allowed...
In my sense, nothing is forbidden, but you must be ready to face the consequence of your actions (ICly I mean of course)

Nobody should judge someone else roleplay and just makes your character reacts as he would be ICly.

Galdim thinks that the farther you are from the earth and soil, the less dwarf you are. And will treat you with all the worst name if he sees a dwarf flying on the surface (in the underdark, he doesn't care) be it from a divine prayer of with a hot air balloon as he sees that (and bathing) as the utter disgrace for a dwarf.

Is he right? Is he wrong,? Nobody cares about that, that's what he think and that's it, no OOC conversation will change that, now you can try to make him change his mind ICly, that may even work but all that is to be done ICly.

The only thing that can sparks from it is good and fun roleplay.

I'm not sure there need to be defined precise rules, guidelines but guidelines are just that, guidelines and you can very well step outside of them it will sparks interesting reactions from others, but you should not shun down their reaction either and that's how we end up with very funny roleplay.

Brar

[Selveem]

Also, I am not sure where this came from, but for the record: Dwarven Females do NOT have beards..

[Grenwyn]

Also, I am not sure where this came from, but for the record: Dwarven Females do NOT have beards..

Lord of the Rings, again.

[Pakur]

Also, I am not sure where this came from, but for the record: Dwarven Females do NOT have beards..

Case by case basis I'm sure...some human females have mustaches..

[Isolrem]

Also, I am not sure where this came from, but for the record: Dwarven Females do NOT have beards..

According to Races of Faerun, some female Gold and a few female Shield Dwarves wear beards.

[Selveem]

Also, I am not sure where this came from, but for the record: Dwarven Females do NOT have beards..

According to Races of Faerun, some female Gold and a few female Shield Dwarves wear beards.

According to Races of Stone (a later publication that goes more in-depth on Dwarves), they do not.

What page are you looking at?

[Lathander]

Subsequently in the year 103024 in a heretofore unpublished partial manuscript chapter 235, section 44, subsection XXVII, paragraph 18f, bullet point 2 of the unabridged appendix stated......

[Selveem]

Subsequently in the year 103024 in a heretofore unpublished partial manuscript chapter 235, section 44, subsection XXVII, paragraph 18f, bullet point 2 of the unabridged appendix stated......

Cute, but this is actually a rather important thing for those who play Dwarves. There are few players of female Dwarves (and even less female Dwarves played by female players). One of the main reasons I was given (aside from the accent) was specifically that they're 'too hairy.'

Is there a reason for your post?

[Lirith]

I have a female dwarf character without a beard. Some other people might have one with a beard. I think the point is, choose for yourself.

Different sources might have different opinions, but if all of those sources can be considered as "equal" to each other, it achieves nothing.

In short, what Brar said.

[Isolrem]

I do not know how much stock I am willing to put into a far-from-the-main-canon optional sourcebook. It is not FR focused, and it does not even treat dwarves as separate subraces. Even then, the only reference I could find in Races of Stone is that grooming of the beard is generally a fashion for males.

Given what is said on Races of Faerun (and forgotten realms wiki for that matter), I am willing to accept bearded female dwarves as acceptable, if rare, PC candidates. But certainly there should be no misconception that it is common.

[Gwain]

Seeing as the goal for dwarves has always been to rp them in a way that differs from short humans, adhere them to the example set in 3rd edition (around the time of the Thunder Blessing) and use an accent when able, does it really matter if a dwarf chooses to fly or not to fly or distrusts certain forms of magic as long as their rp is justified? I've read fantasy fiction where dwarven women may or may not have beards or side lockes, but seeing as a description is left up to the player its open to interpretation. I've always witnessed dwarven rp as outstanding, but I don't think aside from above that they need to be debated with such ferocity.

[Nysan]

As a player of a very old dwarf, let me shed some light on this topic.

The 'misconceptions' mentioned in the first post: flying, magic, and ships dislike/distrust are house rules that have been in place since dwarves came to FK. (Do a forum search, they have been discussed for YEARS.) And at the end of the day, house rules, especially ones that have been upheld for so long, veto sourcebooks.

Feel free to suggest updating the old guard, we have done it before, but they are not misconceptions when they are house rules. However, female beards are a misconception... though the facial grooming habits of characters are often left in the hands of the players. I personally hold no ill will to the bearded lady, be she dwarf, human, or gnome.

That said, there is a bit of flexibility within these standard RP rules, from dwarf to dwarf. If you can justify in-game why your dwarf doesn't mind magics, or boats, or flying, or wizards in general, or whatever... then you can poke a toe or two outside the 'standard' methods of dwarfness. The big, bold, important word there is JUSTIFY. If you are going to go against house rules and play a magic-friendly, flying-happy, ship-sailing dwarf of the world, you better do your homework and have a very clear reason why.

A good example of this is old Gilain. Many that know him have seen him fly or even allow wizard magics around him (though he doesn't enjoy water much). Gilain is not a typical dwarf, however his abnormal habits are explained by what and who he is fairly well. I can justify every non-rule trait he has.

Should you take up a dwarf and not follow the rules, take that word to heart. Justify is a hard word to manage. Justify to imms, justify to other players, and then live with the consequences of those choices. It's not easy! As the old saying goes, if you wanted to play a short human, you should have made one.

[Keltorn]

Subsequently in the year 103024 in a heretofore unpublished partial manuscript chapter 235, section 44, subsection XXVII, paragraph 18f, bullet point 2 of the unabridged appendix stated......

Ye shall indicate petting is completed by wandering hither or jumping forth from a lap. However, shall ye take a bite of the hand, a swipe at the arm, or a full-on mad-eyed lunge at the human's face, this, too, shall indicate that all further petting activities must cease. Ye shall not be punished, and the human should very well know what she did wrong.

While recognizing the proper methods of lovingly grooming our future feline masters is of undeniable importance and veracity, I'm not sure it's all that relevant to a discussion of Dwarves from a fantasy world.

I, too, remember LotR mentioning that Dwarven women have beards, though, in that scene of the movie, it was Aragorn that said it without Gimli ever confirming. It could be true, or it could be a human ranger making a joke. That scene does, however, make a fine demonstration of Dwarven horsemanship.

Also, I am not sure where this came from, but for the record: Dwarven Females do NOT have beards..

According to Races of Faerun, some female Gold and a few female Shield Dwarves wear beards.

According to Races of Stone (a later publication that goes more in-depth on Dwarves), they do not.

What page are you looking at?

Pages 11, 17, and 20. Isolrem's right about that, and I'm inclined to agree with him about Races of Stone's accuracy for FR. It doesn't really seem like it should replace FR canon, though it does go a great deal more in depth about Dwarven culture, rituals, etc., making it a great source of inspiration for Dwarven RP.

.

I have a female dwarf character without a beard. Some other people might have one with a beard. I think the point is, choose for yourself.

I think it's great that female dwarves still have the right to choose for themselves, but so do the males. Turns out, there's been a number of technological breakthroughs in the FR setting that make beard removal completely possible. This process, known most commonly as "shaving," has finally made beard removal a rather simple procedure instead of some kind of epic level encounter.

It is to my understanding that female dwarves shaving their beards is actually fairly common if they're spending a lot of time in Human lands. Male dwarves, on the other hand, don't get any sort of social stigma among humans simply for having facial hair, so I doubt they'd be inclined to do the same. Still, it'd be nice to have some kind of consensus on what's normal for the Dwarven race as opposed to just testimonies on how some people have done it differently. If a Human character were to approach a male dwarf and ask him if it's true that their women sometimes grow beards, what should his answer be? Surely the Dwarven character would know ICly how it works. If people are deciding on an individual basis how the rest of the race functions, then I'm sure that's fun for those players, but couldn't that hurt a new player's feeling of immersion in FK?

***

Dwarven distrust of magic (specifically arcane magic) is fairly well documented and even manifests itself as a racial bonus on saves against all magic. A good FR example would be Bruenor Battlehammer's distrust of Alustriel Silverhand's magic, though he was able to put that aside when he needed a flaming chariot to speed him out to save his friends. In fact, I think I remember him thoroughly enjoying the experience once he'd gotten over his initial reservations.

The same goes for any action that results in a dwarf's feet leaving the ground. Flying, riding, sailing... Dwarves don't tend to like that lack of stability. They prefer the feeling of hard, trustworthy stone beneath them. In addition, how much experience did the early dwarves have with those things? Flight, horses, and boats are all things you would rarely see in an underground tunnel, after all. That said, there's still plenty of exceptions for those dwarves that gave these unstable activities a try. I recall a few dwarves that actually took up fishing on a river that guided the Companions of the Hall on their boat. I think they were called Yipper and Quipper Fishsquisher. Fun names, huh?

In the cases of both magical distrust and favoring stable ground, I feel like they're more cultural trends, really, and they're prone to changing over time, albeit very slowly for dwarves. Sort of like how, in the US, showing one's ankles was previously considered a breech of modesty, but now bikinis are somehow acceptable. Times change, people change. Dwarven culture may be as unmoving as the mountains themselves, but time will, inevitably, erode away those concepts in favor of new ones. Personally, I think playing a dwarf that's initially apprehensive about those things is a lot of fun, but it should not ever be required of a player. I think that last part is one thing everyone can agree on, yes?

***

I've got another Dwarven roleplay concept to throw out there. Writing in a Dwarven accent. Thoughts? Opinions?

[Harroghty]

The source for these quotes is Dwarves Deep (TSR09300) by Ed Greenwood. This book is a 2d Edition Forgotten Realms campaign accessory. This is therefore about the closest thing to an authoritative source as you can find (Greenwood, after all, invented the realms), but the author would be the first to remind you that the Realms do not have a formula; they are yours to innovate from his guidelines.

RE: magic

It appears to be a question of aptitude, not attitude. Although you could extrapolate that their doubting of arcane casting races could be applied to magic itself (see Keltorn's point above). This could be further reinforced by their reliance upon their gods.

Elminster.. ..knows of no dwarven wizards, and believes the inherent magic resistance of 'trueblood' dwarves makes their mastery of wizardry impossible. Strangely this applies to learned, memorized spells, but not to spell-like natural powers. p. 37

Dwarven priests cast spells as clerics of other races do, with one important difference: spell energies are always channelled [sic] through a stone holy symbol worn next to the skin or grasped by the cleric. p. 37

RE: female beards

They appear to have them, but shave them.

All dwarves grow beards, male and female, but some dwarves, usually females, shave. p. 3

Almost all dwarves are hirsute, covered with at least some hair all over their bodies. Jungle dwarves have the least hair, and shield dwarves the most. Dwarves of both sexes may shave, perfume, trim, and comb all their hair, or tattoo themselves. Their growth may be inhibited by treating areas of the body with a paste of secret ingredients, then searing the area in open flame. Tattoos also inhibit the growth of hair.

Many dwarves, particularly females, oil and shave their bodies regularly. A non-dwarf seeing a shaggy-bearded dwarf in heavy armor and furs that conceal the betraying lines of the female figure may have the most trouble determining the dwarf's sex.

Most dwarven females dress, walk, and fight as males do, and have similar low-pitched, gruff, husky voices. Like males, they naturally grow boards, and only some shave. p. 5

RE: mounts and flying

The section describing the dwarven settlement The Riftlake describes how the gendarmerie is composed of hippogriff riding "skyriders". Skyriders also carry a cloak to be used as a makeshift parachute. It does, however, mention that recruits are hard to come by.

...police forces are typically 1d4 + 13 dwarven fighters of 3rd to 5th level, in chain mail and armed with multiple throwing axes, a battle axe each, and a few blades. Each also carries a horseman's lance, and is mounted on a hippogriff. p.46

[Lathander]

Nysan nicely lays out the FK history of dwarven rp, and Harroghty provides solid source material from Greenwood. I'm chiming in to lend my support to those two positions as answers to Athon's query.

Please forgive my earlier humor. It wasn't intended to be insulting. The minutia of it struck me as very funny and I commented on it in my fashion. I recognize that such level of detail regarding the specific roleplay of dwarves is very important to a segment of our mud population.