levels below ten

[Toronar]

I disagree you in the point a and b.
The loss of equipment is painful but you need to be used to it anyway. You can just run back for your corpse... you could, but the movement lag and ridiculously low movement points make it very unpleasant...
For me, these points led back to the movement system again.

[Hviti]

Cheaper recall scrolls and potions? No-no to me. I feel that it diminishes the purpose of having brew and scribe for wizards and priests, what with recall spells being one of the most useful spells in the game. Besides, it helps the wizzies and priests earn money.

Recall can't be brewed, so the only option for recall potions is buying them off NPC merchants for ~20 platinum - which doesn't help those who can brew at all. It can be scribed, but scrolls can only be used by spellcasters, who don't buy recall potions anyway because they can cast it or flight spells.

I haven't seen a PC sell a recall potion since the code update to make it unbrewable - however, making it brewable would imo be a very helpful boost for brewers, since it was one of the most requested spells and might have the added benefit of making it easier for new characters to get around or escape deadly situations.

[Dalvyn]

however, making it brewable would imo be a very helpful boost for brewers, since it was one of the most requested spells and might have the added benefit of making it easier for new characters to get around or escape deadly situations.

Who knows what the future might hold?

Perhaps they are still brewable, but since the spell is higher level, it takes more than just the normal brewing recipes?

Anyway ... there's something in the work regarding this particular topic.

(That was me being all mysterious and all... now back to your regular programme).

[Kregor]

As a "conservative" DM too, I think that there can be fun in playing low level characters and that there is no reason to ignore those low levels or make them fly by.

That is not what I was saying. I do not advocate whisking past the first 10 levels, to make it a little grind run through the training temple, nor did I say that playing a lowbie couldn't be fun. I've played coming of age with all my PCs, pretty much, it's as much a part of character building as any stage in the PC's career.

What I *did* say, and still assert, is that a 50 hour level 8 is unreasonable. And that's not a spend most of the time RPing and only go kill a few mobiles now and then 50 hours; that's spending at least two thirds of the time grinding.

Yes, I'm all for more quests, I'm all for more stuff for lowbies to do. I'm all for letting them guild, faith and anything they want straight out of the temple at level 2 if they wanted. But my other point is, these things have to be geared to actually help them advance, and work their way into more levels. If you were a D&D player, and you spend a couple hours completing an adventure with a party of yours, you did things right, you succeeded in your quest... and come the end of the game the DM didn't give you any experience, you'd be looking for another DM.

That's what it feels like for a lowbie player who goes in grouped with a couple other players into Howling Peaks (grouping desired, and necessary for survival of a lowbie all the way to the end). Finish the quest, save the day, be the hero, type "worth"....

"You have only begun your journey to the next level."

That's what I'm talking about. More quests, and more opportunities to type "worth" and see your progress not move, is not encouraging in the end. It's doesn't help that the building staff (at least this member) has mostly no idea of the progression scale of levels, to even know what the proper amount of exp to award for a quest for the average level of the quest is... I DO know that the tabletop amount isn't even close.

If I could actually quantify the progression, to be able to decide "Well, if this quest is completed successfully, and conditions A B and C are done, then it should be worth X% of a level for a Xth level character," I could work with that to build from, and we could actually code quests that would progress a character without mindless grinding.

[Glim]

Perhaps they are still brewable, but since the spell is higher level, it takes more than just the normal brewing recipes?

I just want to say: You are an evil, evil man.

More on topic:

Heres a thought, though I can already tell it might lead to being abused. Why not allow the reward command to give a small amount of xp as wellas kismet? Not something that a level 30 or 40 could use, but maybe something that a lvl 5-10 could use to bump them up 25% or something. I know I use the reward command whenever I can, mainly because I can afford the kismet and also because I like to encourage people when they roleplay well.

As for experience with the reward command, a certain character of mine has literally tons of experience that I will easily never use. So why not be able to sacrifice a good amount of that to give a little bit away? It kinda goes along with the fact that if I get rewarded by an imm on that character, while I am thankful for the complement and the encouragement, on the rewards side it's kind of like, oh, hrm, more xp that I won't ever use.

Maybe it could be limited to lvl 50s that have extra experience? Or... some other kind of limitation, I dunno It's very early and I am tired, so just throwing that out.

Also, along the lines of travel. I don't really get where people are coming from in this aspect. I have a merchant character who is maybe lvl 12 I think. I bought a horse and saddle, some mount skill and handle animal, and I have literally travelled all over the world with him. I tend to enjoy it and I roleplay it out, camping by a fire, killing bandits, etc even if I am alone (Jeesh, get a life, Nick).

Feedback is always welcome,

[Vibius]

Particularly I have noticed that charisma does in fact increase the rate at which you get xp in a noticeable way.

[Dalanna]

Coming in a bit late, but there was discussion about levels 5-10 taking forever.

My characters got to level 5 rather easily. After that it was a crawl. The HUGE dummies continue to give less and less xp. And leaving town in cloth armour resulted in bandits removing one or more limbs on a disturbingly regular basis. Between 5 and 10 every character of mine has had at least 3 deaths.

Bandits have killed my characters, almost always by severing a head or limb. The character's HP and Aid abilities low, its almost guaranteed death.

Dangerous areas in cities have killed my characters, just while they were learning the layout of their hometowns. This isn't really anyone's fault, and one of these places has been fixed. It does slow leveling though.

The worst part of dying as a newbie, is that you don't know anyone yet, even if you did you couldn't call them because your precious amulet is on the corpse, and you have to get your body back. More often than not, this turned into multiple deaths as I tried to get back to my body with no gear. Few newbies are good at brawling.

Dying say, two cities from your starting location, is really rough on a new player.

Dalanna is at 79 hours, and only level 7. That was my first character here. I got so frustrated with her dying to random bandit attacks and being unable to find a suitable area to level beyond 7 without being over her head. I made my dwarf. Luckily the area my dwarf started in is much easier to level a character through, though it often lacks any player interaction.

I think my dwarf still took around 100 hours to get to 10. After 10... it picks up, which is really strange. 6-10 was in my opinion much harder than 10-20.

My suggestions for this would be:

1.) Add another floor to the leveling areas, with mobs that use crush attacks (These don't seem to sever limbs), or put a quest in the newbie areas that initiates at leve 5 and tells the newbie to go to a specific Non-aggro hunting area that would be suitable for their level, and continue the quest there.

2.) Add a program into the newbie areas that spawns one copper every couple in game hours, but never exceeds a stack of 1 cp to prevent exploiting. Getting just one copper will let a newbie buy a plain weapon and aid signifigantly in retrieving their corpse.

3.) Encourage the player council to visit the starter areas and help newbies find safe places, so they don't spend hours wandering the roads and dying to bandits.

[Oghma]

I thought only bladed weapons could sever limbs, can unarmed mobiles do the same?

[Zynarc]

I believe you can punch someone's head off. I did that a few times.

[Oghma]

That should be changed in my opinion, in real life you can cave someone's skull if you hit it hard, but a fist will not tear you to shreds. At one point I think it was coded that only bladed weapons could cut off body parts, I don't know if that stayed in or was removed, I might also be mistaken.

[Selveem]

If this change were made, would it also change that for monsterous races that actually have claws for unarmed melee?

[Toronar]

Let me say some thought.
- Recall, raise dead, resurrection... they are all useless if you gain your first 10 level in newbie area.

- Newbie training ground should do this:
- tell you where the trainers in town are.
- give you a backpack with a full set of newbie equipment each time you ask
- tell you where the newbie areas are.
- Shouldn't let you gain 5-7 level immediately, newbies need knowledge about game, not cheap levels.

- Instead of free recall for the first 10 level, let them buy cheap recall potion for any level in the shop. At level 11 i was as newbie as any lvl 5, why did i lose the ability to recall? ...

- make exploring possible and exciting for any level, even for the first 10: movement points (!), lagless movement.

- newbie areas shouln't be underground in the darkness. The most annoying thing when a newbie die, he need to run back for corpse, (.. movement lag,.. low movement points), then suddenly he notices, he can't loot his corpse because he doesn't have a torch.

[Dalvyn]

Let me say some thought.

Thanks for sharing your ideas.

- Newbie training ground should do this:
- tell you where the trainers in town are.

I disagree with this. FK is first and foremost a social game, where you are supposed to interact with others. Asking for directions is actually one of the easiest reason to start interacting with others; and 99% of the elder players will be more than happy to help a new player explore the city and point him/her towards the trainers they seek (or, hopefully soon, teach them themselves).

- tell you where the newbie areas are.

Same as above.

- Shouldn't let you gain 5-7 level immediately, newbies need knowledge about game, not cheap levels.

I wholeheartedly agree with that. We might not agree on what is the most important knowledge about the game though ... In my opinion, the number 1 thing that newbies should be told is that they shouldn't hope to survive or have fun on their own, that the game is built around the notion of interaction; and that the sooner and the more they get to know other characters, the easier and more fun their stay on FK will be.

- give you a backpack with a full set of newbie equipment each time you ask

I moved this here, because, once again, most of those problems are no longer problems when you interact. If you've lost everything (something that next to never happens - there's always some way to get back your things), 95% of the people you meet in the game will be glad to buy you a set of standard equipment to get you going.

- Instead of free recall for the first 10 level, let them buy cheap recall potion for any level in the shop. At level 11 i was as newbie as any lvl 5, why did i lose the ability to recall? ...

The free recall feature was added to help newbies find their way back to places that they would know I think (i.e. if they get lost, they can just recall to a room they know). I believe that it's a feature we could just get rid of.

- make exploring possible and exciting for any level, even for the first 10: movement points (!), lagless movement.

Movement points, yes. They need to be increased. Many players agree on that.

Lagless movement, I disagree. The lag (which is mostly felt in the wilderness) is there to make a difference between the various modes of transportation.

- newbie areas shouln't be underground in the darkness. The most annoying thing when a newbie die, he need to run back for corpse, (.. movement lag,.. low movement points), then suddenly he notices, he can't loot his corpse because he doesn't have a torch.

Number 1 thing again. Who said you had to go down there on your own? Ask anybody you know and I'm sure they'll gladly join you, or at least give you a torch or another way to light your path.

[Lerytha]

The problem is, what if the person who goes down with you is not near your level? You may therefore have help, but you don't gain any experience points at all.

Is it possible to tweak the system so that the lower-level character can still gain experience if joined with a high-level character?

[Toronar]

I disagree with this. FK is first and foremost a social game, where you are supposed to interact with others. Asking for directions is actually one of the easiest reason to start interacting with others; and 99% of the elder players will be more than happy to help a new player explore the city and point him/her towards the trainers they seek (or, hopefully soon, teach them themselves).

Well, my opinion might, or might not be reasonable.
There are information, what each and every player should know IC, and the task is to teach them OOC. Maybe i am wrong, when i think the character didn't live all his life in a dark room, he had a life, he learned his job somewhere. He was probably walking on the streets, he has seen the guilds, trainers, all in all he has a knowledge about his town.
You might be right, RP wise it is an excellent idea, that you forgot your past, you need to investigate even your name, it is not a cliche at all... And as far as i know, the situation is not this in this case.

"We might not agree on what is the most important knowledge about the game though "
We probably not. Because i think, the newbie training supposed to give OOC knowledge about the game. And i think, the most important to know OOC, what your character know IC.

"The lag (which is mostly felt in the wilderness) is there to make a difference between the various modes of transportation."
Yes, this is something i know. It is there for some reason, but it doesn't mean, that is good, and it need to be that way. If we follow your order of ideas, then we shouldn't change anything in the game.
First of all, there is difference between the modes of transportation without lag. Fly help you avoid fight, mount helps you in fight.
If the lag is the alpha and omega of this mud, why is it so long? Why isn't it longer? Or shorter? This can be a subject of discussion...

An average character can walk 30 miles in 5-6 hours, so if you want to be consistent, lag should be 30 real minutes after every movement...
This can be a starting point for the discussion.
The two opposite end are the fun, and the consistency. If we are on half way, it is neither fun, neither consistent.

[Dalvyn]

There are information, what each and every player should know IC, and the task is to teach them OOC.

Yes, I agree with that. But the exact location of each trainer, and the "good places" to train are not necessarily part of what a newly-created character would know. So, ICly ("in character"-ly), it makes sense that you would have to ask more experienced adventurers about trainer and training locations. Even if the character has spent all his life in Waterdeep, he has just recently started an adventuring carreer (that's what it means being just created); therefore, it is reasonable to assume that he had no interest in learning who teaches what before.

In addition to this IC point of view, there's also an OOC consideration here. Giving new players a list of trainer location would set a bad precedent, because it would make this game look like a single-player game. Then we'd see new players go to those places on their own, do things on their own, then get completely stuck when they die and they know nobody to call for help.

A second OOC consideration is that it is not unreasonable to expect new players to create characters who ICly do not know the area, and let more experienced players create characters who already know the geography of the area and so on. If we added a detailed lesson about the geography of Waterdeep, the location of all shops and trainers and inns and so on in the character creation, I would guess that 95% of the players would find it boring and we'd get opposite reactions "Can I get to play already? Why do I have to go through this all?"

You might be right, RP wise it is an excellent idea, that you forgot your past, you need to investigate even your name, it is not a cliche at all... And as far as i know, the situation is not this in this case.

Not knowing the trainers' locations does not mean that your character has necessarily forgotten his past. He's just started being an adventurer; who trains second attack, cure light, or meditate was not questions of interest in his "previous" life. This can be as simple as that.

"We might not agree on what is the most important knowledge about the game though "
We probably not. Because i think, the newbie training supposed to give OOC knowledge about the game. And i think, the most important to know OOC, what your character know IC.

I do not think that the game ought to tell you what your character knows ICly, simply because it's up to the player to determine that.

Characters starting in Waterdeep might not be natives of Waterdeep. They might have reached the city after their coming of age for example. They could have lived their whole life in the streets of Waterdeep before, yes, but that's what the Waterdeep map is for. Note that even after spending their first 18-or-so years in Waterdeep, your character might not know the location of all the trainers as you suggest. I've been in the city where I currently live for 14 years now, and I am unable to list all the schools, let alone the topics they teach.

I agree that basic information about the world (a few words about the geography, about the deities and their churches, about everyday life, ...) would be common knowledge. There are ways in the game to get that (through the forum, or through special areas like the Museum for example).

But trainer location and "good training places" do not belong to this category of "common knowledge". Let's be honest here. The only reason one might want to have access to an OOC list with those is to reduce the need for interaction with others. If this is a desired goal, then perhaps another game is better suited.

"The lag (which is mostly felt in the wilderness) is there to make a difference between the various modes of transportation."
Yes, this is something i know. It is there for some reason, but it doesn't mean, that is good, and it need to be that way. If we follow your order of ideas, then we shouldn't change anything in the game.

Not at all. I did not mean it couldn't be modified. I said that it was there for a reason. That means that just removing it does not work. I am fine with considering alternative suggestions. Yet, all I've read is "Oh this sucks. Let's remove it" with no constructive criticism. Present an alternative that satisfies everybody and we might consider it.

An average character can walk 30 miles in 5-6 hours, so if you want to be consistent, lag should be 30 real minutes after every movement...
This can be a starting point for the discussion.
The two opposite end are the fun, and the consistency. If we are on half way, it is neither fun, neither consistent.

Actually, each room in the wilderness represents approximately 20 miles if I remember correctly. That would make a lag of 3-4 hours per room. Considering that the lag currently is a couple of second, I think that, on the fun - consistent slider, we're pretty much on the fun extreme.

[Selveem]

Let's be honest here. The only reason one might want to have access to an OOC list with those is to reduce the need for interaction with others. If this is a desired goal, then perhaps another game is better suited.

(Not trying to be offensive here, please bear with me: )

Dalvyn, that may not be the only reason. Perhaps that is the first idea that comes to your mind. Many people, when new, just want trainers to 'get by' so that they don't die to every single bandit they encounter.

Consistently people are reminded of their tone on the forums. I don't know if it's the tone here, but not only does your post seem accusatory and impolite, but one might also misunderstand you and say 'great, I just got here and the Imms already want me to leave.'

I don't know if Toronar is new here, but if you'd said that to me I'm pretty certain most know the response I'd give.

Not at all. I did not mean it couldn't be modified. I said that it was there for a reason. That means that just removing it does not work. I am fine with considering alternative suggestions. Yet, all I've read is "Oh this sucks. Let's remove it" with no constructive criticism. Present an alternative that satisfies everybody and we might consider it.

You know, this is my own fault. I did not mean to suggest that the lag should be removed. I just feel that it is slightly excessive. Yes, this is a Multi-User Dungeon and it is meant to be a roleplay-enforced MUD, but we all understand the value of OOC time and take considerations into account.

Some people may have all day to play - maybe they work from home and can MUD simultaneously in the background and thus the lag means little to nothing. Others may simply have other plans for later on and are just goofing off right now. What's a little lag? There are others, though, who don't have the same luxuries of time. Certainly, there are also those of us who are simply impatient and don't like feeling that we're playing on an old Amiga that upon typing in a command must go through the floppy disk, be read, be written, be read, be displayed..

I just think that the lag should be reduced. I like it better whatever it was at before. I don't know the exact measurements and I don't care to measure out "1, 2, 3, 4, 5 - 5.2567 seconds per wilderness room." It's hard to test out what we think would be feasible lag per room. I don't even know how we would propose to do so.

An average character can walk 30 miles in 5-6 hours, so if you want to be consistent, lag should be 30 real minutes after every movement...
This can be a starting point for the discussion.
The two opposite end are the fun, and the consistency. If we are on half way, it is neither fun, neither consistent.

Consistency generally has little to no place in fantasy. No one imagines consistency as fun, to my knowledge. To me, when I imagine consistency I imagine something as boring or trite.

[Toronar]

"Oh this sucks. Let's remove it" .

I am sorry, but in this case, this is a constructive criticism.
MAybe players (and immortals) should vote?

[Lathander]

If the lag is the alpha and omega of this mud, why is it so long? Why isn't it longer? Or shorter? This can be a subject of discussion...

Travel lag is not the alpha/omega of the mud. It is one issue. As for discussion on the topic, while discussion is always welcome, this topic WAS discussed and debated. It was a lenghty, drawn out discussion involving many points. I recall it happening years ago when this system was put in. Before the current system, there was practically no lag at all. That made mounts and flying spells completely useless. It also made ranger and druid abilities to move easily in the wilderness areas of no advantage over the full-plated fighter who decided to run around the mountains and chase giants. So, we discussed and debated. We then implemented a system that swung the pendulum WAY to far in the other direction. For those of you who recall, there was a brief time when travel lag was incredibly slow. It was a true hinderance to everyone and so we re-evaluated. The comprimise system we have now is the result of much testing, discussion and debate.

Personally, I think the current system is fine. Lag in mountains is different than in hills, hills differ from deep forest, deep forest differs from light forest, light forest is different from plains and plains are different from roads. Cities have paractically no lag. The ONLY thing that MIGHT be worth looking into would be to speed up the lag on roads. And that is more concession to the posts here than my actual thought. I really think it is fine the way it stands.

Movement points are a different issue and I think that should be changed.

It is there for some reason, but it doesn't mean, that is good, and it need to be that way. If we follow your order of ideas, then we shouldn't change anything in the game.

I cannot accept this logic. Because we think one system is working just fine doesn't mean that we never change anything or re-examine it. Upon re-examination if the system is working and doesn't need to be fixed, we just move on to look at the next system. If we used this logic the other way, we would then have to say "System X isn't working, so we need to change every system in the game, whether it works well or not."

[Toronar]

I couldn't follow your logic, because you say something what i didn't.

Anyway, lets see this:
"Movement points are a different issue and I think that should be changed. "
You agree, something is wrong with the system. But what, and why? We all were talking about travelling is too slow.
Npw please grab a stop-watch , and walk from Waterdeep to Tantras or Westgate and check how many time you spend with sleep, and how many time with walk.
Movement points matter less than movement lag. So if something is wrong with travelling speed, then you seek the problem in the wrong place.

"It also made ranger and druid abilities to move easily in the wilderness areas of no advantage over the full-plated fighter who decided to run around the mountains and chase giants."
I have tryed many muds before, and all i can say: this is not true! If you need a lots of movement points in the hills, then your warrior will spend more time with sleeping than walking, and he will avoid hills for sure.