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Also, we need to take spell skill-ups into consideration.

Please don't misunderstand; I do think Priests and Wizards are crazy powerful compared to other classes in FK, but if you take their ability to cast per times a day and decrease it, the ability to ever GM spells would be even worse than it is now. For some spells, it'd mean you could never GM them within 10 years of playing 40+ hours a week.

As for meditate at low levels, I don't think that's accurate, Zorinar. I think your mediation time to fill up is about the same at high level as it is low level. The problem is there is a huge difference in amount of spell slots needed to fill up a high level which makes sense.. but not for low levels.

I think regeneration rates should be as they currently are divided by ECL. So, for a level 1 wizard who obtains meditate (which isn't currently possible), it'd only take a few seconds to regain his spells while meditating. At high level, it'd be just as it currently is.

Selveem wrote:Also, we need to take spell skill-ups into consideration.

That I haven't taken into consideration at all, I admit it was a mistake.

Disgression from topic on.
With the ECL taken into account now for spell effectiveness, perhaps it would be a good thing to be able to actually see how close to maximum effectiveness your spells truly are?
Perhaps in your spell list with a * next to "maximized" spell, so you don't loose time to Gm something that is at their max when adept
But that's a whole other topic so let's focus on spell regeneration.
Disgression from topic off.

On the topic at hand, my solution is only a possible alternative, subject to tweaking and testing and changing as needs be, nothing else.
I'm not saying it is a perfect solution, it is but one proposition among an infinite number of possible changes.

It is a system I know and I like and have thought about it since 12 years for FK, I'm fully aware of the restrictions it will bring to casters, you won't be able to cast mindlessly anymore and will have to weight the casting of every spells for its consequence. Much like in tabletop and much like the teaching of Mystra...

But then perhaps 5 times a day would be better (making them all comes back every 25 minutes on average, which is not really that bad... ), perhaps 2 times a day would suffice (once per hour on average), I gave the numbers of 3 per day.
Perhaps it woudl be better to make the gradually coming back instead of all at once and wasting the ones you haven't used...
there is a lot of possibility to discuss, and it's better to make a bad proposition than none at all because it makes you thinks about the current situation too

Brar

not sure I should reply to my own topic but well, it is something else that came to my mind that I have not said about this.
If spells were made more scarce on the direct casting, this would give more importance to wands, scrolls and other alternative ways of spellcasting...
This could be interesting too.

(Granted they could use some love to make them works better and craftable and yes, brew and scribe would need to be change if this system is put in place, but that's a whole other topic)

I believe that the majority of complaints and discussion are based on the difficulty of starting up a wizard character. The early wizard cannot rely on spells which puts them in a a very slow track towards growth that can challenge one's patience to the extreme.

I thought giving mediate at level 1 was a fairy progressive idea for the mud, but suddenly there is a plethora of suggestions coming about. Some scare me, as they seem to be based on the misguided notion that the wizard class is overly powerful and that they need to be tamed. We would be seeing a LOT more wizards around if that were so I think....

The solution is not to start attacking the perceived power of one class over another. The sweat, blood, and actual real life years it takes to create a decent wizard is staggering compared to the effort it takes to raise another class to power. The need to train up each spell individually, the money, the components, and the mediate down time... it is a totally different experience from any other class. A lot of the perceived power of casters is from PVP confrontations, but don't forget that in FK casters fully buff themselves up before they start fighting.

The problem set forth is that until a player has put in a good amount of time on their wizard, they are frustrated to the point of giving up. One possible solution given was to tweak the spell regeneration rates with meditate skill, or give it earlier. Changing the rate of spell return by speeding up spell regeneration seems like a good idea on the surface but in end I don't like it. Meditating to get spells is the price paid of being a wizard. (One of many prices we pay) We cannot mirror D&D exactly in this situation since a day can pass in a second when playing at the table and you can suddenly have all your spells ready to go. Might as well just keep it the way it is, and give it meditate earlier I say.

But I do have two potential additional solutions to offer: (but in the end I think the system is find the way it is)

1) Allow for low level body guards to be hired by wizards. They don't have to be terribly strong, but if they are at least somewhat helpful then we might not have to worry about spell regen rates as much.

2) In the 1-10 newbie area, allow faster spell regeneration rates until the player gets mediate.


Added notes:
Selveem:
Its takes a LOT LONGER to get a magic missle back with apprentice meditate than it does at grandmaster. Also, it takes longer to get higher level spells back than it does for low level spells, regardless of your skill level.

Brar:
Why do we need to make spellcasting harder? Why do we need to make spells more scarce? Lots of spells are not even in the game, and even when you do get them, you have to individually train them up. Why add more work to an already overworked system? Anyway, D&D is a magical world, isn't it? Maybe we should make metal weapons more scarce?

Mindless casting? when in dungeons or with groups in the undermountain, is there such a thing as mindless casting? Wizards have to seriously conserve their spells and not waste them. I'm not sure where you are getting all this.. do you have a wizard you play personally?

Teaching of Mystra in Canon dictate that wizards are supposed to master their spells so that they can be more effective and thus not waste energy. There is even a title for the most powerful and practiced wizard, a person that is the target of all other wizards to beat in magical combat so they can take the title from him or her and be the new target. All supported by Mysra. There is nothing really about not casting a lot. In fact, its quite the opposite.

I'm afraid your views seem very.. not in context with the wizard system in FK. Your observations of wizards are not in agreement with any of my experiences. The solution is not to fix the system by weakening the wizard class. You can already see that most people are quitting their wizards before even getting them off the ground. There is a reason for that.

I don't know where you get the idea that things would be more difficult.
It would be different, but would they be more difficult? there's nothing sure about that.

But if changes are so bad, why have our coders ever implemented the memorization system in the first place? and the combat engine? and the weapon damage tables? ...
We may as well go back to mana and invincible metal armour...

I'm sorry to announce, but wizards are no special cast regarding training all their spells, clerics and druid are on the same boat.
But since the last change made by the staff regarding spell power and efficiency, it is less a problem than it was before.

Now, it all depends on what you do and how you do it.
It will makes things more difficult if you go all by yourself razes a high level area, threre's no doubt about it.
It will makes things more difficult if you go with a group razes an area over and over again, there's no doubt about it.
It will makes mindless bashing of mobs hours long more dificult (I guess that's why you call training), there's no doubt about it.

But should we direct all the changes done toward the soloing or the hack and slash?
They do exist, and they will always but should they be the brake to each changes?

I would prefer to put emphasis on group adventure, and try to see things as a whole.

I again says that primary spellcasters, be them priests, druids or wizards are broken at this time and are not "working as intended".
I'm not speaking about PVP here, I don't do that and don't gives a shit about it to be honest.
I'm speaking about pure adventuring.
Anyone capable of buffing ten peoples with level 8 spells when he have only 5 slots of this level is broken (that's only one example).

Here is a reminder of the original topic:

Mask said :"Spell regeneration rates have been discussed many times, and rather than focus too much on the meditate skill or the difficulty of a newbie wizard, we should think about what the goals of spell regeneration rates are, and what other things we would like to achieve that are related to spell regeneration."

What the goals of spell regeneration are?
Emulate the DnD system with the restriction of a continuous real-time game.

Others things I would like to acheive that is related, if it was not clear before, is to put an emphasis on the use of wands, scrolls, potions and other usable products.

Why are wands/scrolls discarded so easily in FK compared to DnD?
I think it's because they are useless as you never really run out of spells.

That's my opinion on this question.

Then he explained how it is in DnD and asked : "So what variation on this might work on FK?"

I gave one possible variations that I personnaly like. Which is basically "Keeps DnD system but makes the renewal of spells happens more than once per day to goes along the non-time warp aspect of a mud".
Which is basically the same idea as Isolrem's progress bar but limited per day.

If you think mine is wrong, I respect that everyone can have his own opinion, but then propose another one that is good for you so we can discuss it.
Or if you think the current situatio is better, then say it and argument about why it is fine and working good.

That would be more prolific and constructive to the subject, I think, to put several argumented proposition next to each others and compares the actuall arguments of the propositions instead of preposing and discussing about the potential experience of whoever proposes the changes.

Brar

Ps: About Mystra's teaching, I would suggest you read "Help Dogma of Mystra" for FK refrence, which is turning toward the second edition Mystra (Midnight) who is Neutral Good and not the previous Mystra who died during the Time of Troubles who was Lawful Neutral and had such toys like the Magister.

Limit per day is the crux of the problem though. Why are we maiming spell-casters' ability to cast their spells? What I proposed was already a nerf to high level spell-casters and already addresses most of the issues you've outlined. It has the added benefit of making things easier on the lower levels (when total spell count would be lower and the process faster) while yours does the opposite (3x 5 magic missiles a day? no thanks). The only thing it does not resolve is the supposed unique ability of spell-casters to solo high level areas. Actually, fighters can do it too (though it is more race/gear dependent), and I daresay every class can, with the possible exception of rangers.

Edit: Because I tried to find anything useful, and there were just none in this post. Apologize for that.

Brar

I am not going to discuss how to take advantage of DnD and FK game mechanics on this forum, if you really wish to find out we can arrange a demonstration in person.

But I didn't say remove all restrictions to spell-casting, I said not MAIMING the ability to do so. How is it casting at will when you have only so many spell slots, and once you use it you have to spend a reasonably long time refreshing your entire spell list? How is this not staying true to DnD? I stress again that in DnD it is not a common occurrence for spell-casters to have no spells and no way to recover them, and your trying to make it so does not adhere to the spirit of DnD.

Lastly I don't understand why you said spell regeneration is not the way to fix the early levels, completely ignoring the fact that I just told you my system does exactly that. I am not against the idea for the addition of more useful and affordable wands and scrolls but it is simply a lot of work unlikely to see implementation in a short frame of time. Presently the wands from random quest rewards come with low charges, cost a fortune to recharge, and there is no way for you to tell exactly how many charges it has left, once you spend the last charge it becomes a useless stick impossible to repair. With that being the case, you ask why no one in the game makes use of wands right now, it is not because I haven't tried, it is because it hasn't worked for me.

The use of inflammatory adjectives (maim, stupid, ridiculous, etc.) doesn't really help here. It tends to make others just not read your exchange, which means you may as well have had it by PM.

My suggestion is, and I think you were both taking a step in this direction, if you find yourself in a tete-a-tete forum discussion and nobody else is chiming in - it's not going anywhere productive. I think you have both presented your ideas and their rationales. I'd leave it at that and let others offer their own ideas.

Having played D&D Table Top for years and years, including 3rd ed and 3.5 I do not think the disparity in power level, as it is now is all that off. Low level wizards a squishy and survive my the kindness of the other classes. High level wizards are a force that can be reckoned with that can level mountains. Clerics have the might of magic and weapons and are a power house all day long.

Is Spell and health regeneration realistic? No. It is broken? No. I do not think so. As I have said in other posts the current regeneration system is a good compromise between the traditional D&D game design and the reality of playing on a MUD where you cant just say "I sleep 8 hours. Am I disturbed?" "No" "Great. This is my spell list"

Using Zorinar as an example, since I have found him to be one of the more lets go kill things Wizards. I have seen with several characters what he can do and it seems perfectly fitting with a long standing and experienced Wizard. I have played a wizard, one who saw Zorinar come into play and she does not hold a candle to Zorinar. It takes real time and effort to become an arch mage of doom death and destruction and that is fitting with source.

I know Mask asked for suggestion and here is mine. If it aint broke don't fix it.

Adabelle wrote:I know Mask asked for suggestion and here is mine. If it aint broke don't fix it.

While at high levels I most certainly would agree with you. As I've a high level invoker myself (who I've put little effort into [especially with training]) who is a force to be reckoned with even without grinding, I would say that the current system _IS_ a great balance.

My issue is solely with the lower levels area. Yes, a low level wizard is supposed to be easily dispatched - that already happens. The difference is that there is a huge amount of killing required to level on FK in comparison in D&D. In that, your low level wizard is easily stunted far more (and, obviously, longer) than in D&D when left to his own devices.

As I agree that high levels are fine, my intents have been primarily aimed at lower levels who require more uptime in FK than their D&D counterparts. Think of the children!

When you are level 50, you are always level 50, but you are only level 10 once.

Lathander wrote:When you are level 50, you are always level 50, but you are only level 10 once.

I don't get the relevance. Just because your ability to level ends at 50, doesn't mean players (much less characters) will all make it to 50. I know a guy who's played about as long as I have and is still not level 50.

My concern, as I explained before, is not with after level 50 regeneration rates with meditate, but for lower levels who get far fewer spells but still have to meditate the same amount of time.

Selveem wrote:Lathander wrote:
When you are level 50, you are always level 50, but you are only level 10 once.


I don't get the relevance. Just because your ability to level ends at 50, doesn't mean players (much less characters) will all make it to 50. I know a guy who's played about as long as I have and is still not level 50.

My concern, as I explained before, is not with after level 50 regeneration rates with meditate, but for lower levels who get far fewer spells but still have to meditate the same amount of time.

I think what Lathander is trying to say is that it's not as bad as you make it seem and with a little time you'll soon get past this stage?

Of course I could be wrong.

Briek wrote:

Selveem wrote:Lathander wrote:
When you are level 50, you are always level 50, but you are only level 10 once.


I don't get the relevance. Just because your ability to level ends at 50, doesn't mean players (much less characters) will all make it to 50. I know a guy who's played about as long as I have and is still not level 50.

My concern, as I explained before, is not with after level 50 regeneration rates with meditate, but for lower levels who get far fewer spells but still have to meditate the same amount of time.

I think what Lathander is trying to say is that it's not as bad as you make it seem and with a little time you'll soon get past this stage?

Of course I could be wrong.

I hope not, because If that's the case, I disagree greatly:

Darvin the Grounded Wizard (An unlovely, dark-eyed male earth genasi)
Class: Wizard Level: 24 (ECL: 24) Hours Played: 117

While I admit a few hours of that was roleplaying, the dwarfing majority of that has been sheer leveling. Now, knowing me (and my knowledge of the game), I think it's pretty safe to say a new player's wizard would still be lower level than that. The evidence is hardly refutable.

So your basic issue is that you believe that wizards should level more quickly?

No, that would be a byproduct of the issue I believe we have.

I believe low level wizards have far too much downtime.

So with a CONCENTRATE command they could focus on one spell, and if they do a lower level spell the speed will be much quicker than say a level 8 spell. Is this possible to code?

Around when I first started playing FK I started a wizard class character after witnessing how powerful they were IC and OOC. Right off the bat I noticed how DIFFICULT they were. I died left and right, had plenty of down time before I finally quit and deleted that character and moved on to an easier class. I wasn't upset about it though, I recognize(d) that they take a lot of HARD work, time and coin to become powerful. Yes, they are amazing characters once they get into the high levels, able to solo things that any other class can't even dream of taking on alone. But IMHO it's because of all the hard work and sacrifice that players put into them that they get to reap such a large reward. I recently started another wizard after years of playing, and it has been VERY difficult, but I still believe it should be as it has always been, frustratingly difficult.
My character is only level 12, I die constantly and it takes forever to level him. It should be this way, but that is only an opinion.