Torm vs Helm

[Harroghty]

A line in the Code of Torm (http://www.candlekeep.com/library/artic ... e_torm.htm) struck me as a good response to Hrosskell's earlier comment about how to characterize Torm in relation to Helm. This document says:
"The church of Torm is the mighty hand of the Triad, swiftly enacting their wisdom."
You can read the entire document if you'd like but, to summarize it, Torm is the business end of Tyr's justice and Ilmater's mercy. Naturally, each Torman will follow his own traditions in how he presents himself. (Some paladins and priests are from more demonstrative national or social traditions than others.) Whatever their aesthetics, each Torman carries out the practical consequences of the Triad's ethos.
This is much like a concept many military organizations have held over the years. Soldiers, Marines, airmen, sailors, or what-have-you are the executors of policy, not the makers of policy. Tormans are much the same in my opinion.

[Horace]

Cinderella is a lil late to the ball, but I've always pictured Torm and Helm faithful to see virtues in the others that they wish they saw in them selves.

With Torm, I picture them seeing the stoic demeanor and even keel of Helmites in a flattering manner - and with Helm I imagine them watching Tormites able to make more field decisions and finish things where they may be held back by their word.

Most importantly I see both sides working for the same end, though with entirely different motivations. Much like firemen and police get at each other's throats they do only because they both so desperately want to accomplish the same thing...but in a different manner.

The only real evidence of why I see things this way, is that the faithful of Torm and Helm fight like a torn family - in a fashion that can wind up being embarrassing for both (as most public disputes end up). But above mortal mechanisms Torm is the closest ally of Helm - and they genuinely seem to believe the passion between the groups is a good thing.

To sum it up, I don't see it as being real hatred. Obviously both groups feel very passionate about what their purpose is...and watching someone else mostly serve your purpose, but in a completely alien manner and with different hard lined edicts opposing each other, can be hard to deal with. And while they'll say horrible things to the others out of intellectual frustration against an unmovable mindset, when put side by side against an immediate threat - they work as well together as they would with their own.

Police/Fire, Army/Marines, Doctors/Surgeons, Prosecutors/Defense, Catholic/Protestant...you get the picture

[Harroghty]

That's a good point. There is a kind of rivalry but I'm not sure it's just like purpose and different means.

The way I see it, yes, Torm and Helm themselves are allies. Torm is the god of duty and Helm personifies duty. I think the rub here between the followers of these two deities is that their duties are essentially different despite both groups being unswerving in their execution. Tormans must respect Helmites dutiful behavior but would resent that while they are charging into battle, the Helmite remains because his duty is to guard this tower, temple, city, or what-have-you. The Tormans are glad to have said location protected but no warrior can resist resenting that arrangement.

There is a basic mutual respect but Torm is out striking hard at the Banes of the world and Helm is cutting down Mystra (version 1) as she tries to ascend into the Heavens. Both complete their duty but in different ways and to different ends.

[Isaldur]

Don't forget that while Helm has paladins he is not a paladin. Paladins of Helm live up to his code and beyond by also being good in alignment whereas Helm himself is lawful neutral. Helm respects the law more than good or evil and that is final, otherwise he would be Torm.

Evil Helmites? You betcha. They exist and as long as they respect the law then Helm keeps them around. Do you know any lawful evil priests of Torm off enslaving the populations of backwater foreign lands? Helm's faith is by far one of strangest in any game due to the fact that his status as a Guardian puts him at odds with so many evil gods even though they are technically a "Neutral" faith. It's a hodgepodge variety that really has hurt the church more than helped it, and also one of the reasons Helm is never technically considered a member of the Triad thus boosting it to uh.. the.. uh.. uh.. Quadiad?

Granted only priests and paladins need to worry about this. Most other classes that venerate Helm do so because it is their job or calling to guard something and they can be whatever alignment they want to be while doing so.. although Chaotic members tend to be weeded out fast.

Edit: I'd just like to point out that FK doesn't allow evil Helm clerics for some reason according to the help files. Fluff-wise, even back in second edition, they were around.

Further Edit: Yeah, help file differs on Cleric alignment slightly if you compare it to Faiths and Pantheons. F&P lists Cleric aligns as LN, NG, or LE. Help file has LG, LN, and N.

[Kregor]

Case in point for the Helmite church: The subjugation of Maztica.

In contemporary canon era, the church of Helm earns much scandal for the ongoing inquisitions of the natives of Maztica. There is NOTHING good or wholesome about the treatment some tribes receive from the Helmite "missionaries". This would be one of the fracturing points between Torm and Helm's clergy. A Tormish would never resort to compulsory conversion, or ill treatment of those who do not believe the same as they do, especially since the Time of Troubles, when persecution became a scandal for their own church.

Torm would be the first to say that law without choice is likened to Tyranny. Many of the church's doctrines come into play with this train of thought, like the command to always root out injustice from the law, and work within the system to change laws that seem unfair. Torm is in actuality a revolutionary, just a systematic one.

[Horace]

Plus, evil helm is really fun.

[Isaldur]

Plus, evil helm is really fun.

Evil followers of Helm still focus more on the law in Lawful Evil than the evil. Otherwise they would would be following uh.. well whoever the Lawful Evil god currently is in FK. If they were too overtly evil then you'd see the Paladins in the faith busting their noggins right quick.

I'd like to say they are more like defense attorneys for really despicable people. Or Rules Lawyers at your D&D gatherings.

[Horace]

...or evil slave drivers during the years before the civil war...or the inquisition.

They are as evil as the law allows them to be, and they'll use the law as a barrier for getting in trouble for it. Paladins are lawful as well, and while paladins of helm/torm/ilmater/tyr may confront them on it, all the evil helmites have to say is "Laws the law...just doing my duty". That's the end of the discussion, the paladins would have to go about trying to change the law, because they sure aren't gonna change the evil helmites.