[Brainstorm] Fighters

[Rawlys]

I simply meant that the goal was not to just make fighters more powerful in the sense that they would be able to solo more easily, but rather to make them more interesting/useful.

Not trying to be negative about the ideals, but the primary way that experience is gained or that your character is 'furthered' in the game is by combat. That's the heart of dnd, combat. I know the heart of FK is RP, but when it's based off dnd, it's RP that revolves around combat.

When making a fighter do exactly what he/she is suppose to do, you're going to make soloing easier for that person. There's nothing wrong with someone being able to solo some quests, whether it's running errands for someone or rescuing a maiden from a horde of goblins.

If we were required to group up for every quest, this game would be very dull (personally speaking). There would be a lot of "Hey, group up with me and follow me, so I can get this quest done" and very little interaction. I like being able to wander off and go train by myself, regardless of class.

But back to the topic at hand: To make a fighter more unique/useful, you simply have to differentiate his abilities/traits from the other classes. By making him/her a competent fighter who has the possibility of dealing more dammage vs. other classes (straight up fighting), you make them more useful to others. Does that mean that they'd be able to take on more goblins at one time than others? You bet. That's their job.

As for armor and dammage reduction, I'm not a huge fan of dammage reduction, unless it's some super magical armor. Typically, for heavy/medium armor, a bonus to AC would be ideal or a stat bonus. For the real nice magical armor, make the magical effects very noticeable. As in: A glossy red breast plate has a Str bonus of +4. That's not unreasonable, I don't think, while combined with Boots of Hardiness of +2 Con.

Honestly, what I'm guessing in the future is that more and more magical items will start appearing in game with stronger magical effects. "Intermediate" difficulty quests will start to become easier, so new quests will be added which will have no mercy for anyone who tries to solo it. Grouping encouraged - RP required.

[Sairaven]

Part of making fighters more appealing is taking away the ability of other characters to replicate what fighters can do.

I've more or less stopped playing Sairaven after a wizard was taking hits, going so far as to turn me invisible so the beasties could destroy themselves on his shock shield.

Nothing says "You're useless" like a wizard doing your job, and better than you could.

[Orplar]

That just seems like poor rp to me. Unless the warrior really had no business being there.

[Dalvyn]

Was that only from shockshield or also from stone skin ?

Because stone skin has a component that can be easily modified (a diamond worth 500 gp if I remember well).

[Nedylene]

Stone skin vs hard hitter = useless in a hurry. Wizards are powerful at high level but alot of it comes into knowing how to USE the spells at your disposal. Besides.. we're talking about fighters here and now.

If we were talking about balance I would say that fighters (when guilded) should hit HARDER with weapons then other classes/guilds. They should also be FASTER with hand to hand combat and have a plus to their natural AC over other classes.

But functions like guard would be a good advantage and some of the other suggestions given here as well.

[Tobias]

hmm. Aye wizards at high levels tend to stone skin and put a shock/fire/acid type shield up. Especially when they go into UM since those creatures that can only be slayed with spells it makes it easier for them to target a wizard and keeps someone from blowing all there spells. I think a mix of things could rejuvenate fighters. Make armour not damage so they can continue to take heavy hits on the front lines for one. I think they should hit a bit harder than other classes for normal attacks. Not considering others special moves etc..

[Sairaven]

That just seems like poor rp to me. Unless the warrior really had no business being there.

The warrior, being a Helmite, was escorting the wizard to a place. The wizard decided he'd rather play tank.

*grumble*

[Horace]

After thinking about it for a bit, I came up with one skill that at the very least won't be abused solo'ing.


Grapple - combine bash and rescue...not in the sense that you'd be taking all the hits off of somone, but you'd at least be distracting the target enough that it's now attacking only you.

It could lower the targets AC and the aggressors on success, maybe cause difficulty casting, or immobilization like a spell.

The upside is that it'd only be useful in a group...unless you're talking about casting mobs, but even then there aren't too many of those.

[Oghma]

We could allow further guild classification for fighters:

The creation of specialty bonus kits much like Baldur's Gate 2

These are the kits I found at http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin ... 58273/9853

• Kensai -

  This class is also known as the Sword Saint, and consists of a warrior who has been specially trained to be one with his sword. They are deadly and fast and trained to fight without encumbrance.

  Berserker -

  This is a warrior who is in tune with his animalistic side and, during combat, can achieve an ecstatic state of mind that will enable him to fight longer, harder and more savagely than any human has a right to. Berserkers tend to be barbarian-like in nature, but not always. Sometimes it is a conscious choice that a warrior in training makes. Regardless, opponents on the battlefield will be unsettled with they see the savage and inhuman elements of the berserker's personality. This class is common amongst dwarves, know to them as "battleragers."

  Wizardslayer-

  This warrior has been specially trained by his sect to excel in hunting and attacking spellcasters of all kinds.

  These kits could be used to grant special abilities and restrictions for fighters depending on the choices.

Bearing in mind that it has been about eight years and almost two editions of Dungeons and Dragons since these existed, it might seem a bit far fetched.

[Kohadon]

*drools over wizardslayer*

[Rawlys]

As enticing as the suggestion is Oghma, but I would imagine that the other classes would call foul. Rather than having the player chose from an additional class (prestige?), could we not just place in feats, available to all fighters, so that they can chose the 'path' they want to take and RP the title or specilization?

This way, fighters won't get any special treatment but rather, get what D20 dictates they should be able to get.

Horace - I like the idea of grappling and how it would only be useful in a grouped environment. +1 for the suggestion.

[Larethiel]

In D&D, at least in 3.5, fighters get a lot of extra-feats while they rise in levels, if some of those could be introduced for the fighters only, i.e. are trained at the fighter's guild or warrior-trainers only, they might make the class more interessting.

From a D&D-player's view, I'd rather not go someplace without a fighter. Yes, wizards might be able to burn anyone into ashes but if they get hit...then most time they don't stand up again.

[Lathlain]

One point that has been raised that really hits home is the cost of repairing plate/full plate. The cost is understandable, given the base cost of the armour and its quality, but I've had several pieces damage multiple times in a single fight on occasion. I believe making strong armour progressively harder to damage, as Tobias has already suggested, would make plate-wearing fighters significantly more viable as a class.

I also support Dalvyn's idea for removing the automatic heal feature - I've always questioned hitpoint recovery -during- combat! A medatitive state or 'rest' function would be a lot more suitable, as would giving fighters a base increase to their amount of HP per level to compensate, or something similar.

This said, I wouldn't say that either of these would make a fighter more interesting to play as such, but they would make them a lot more player-friendly as a class and may contribute to there being more of them in game - never a bad thing in my books!

The only real skills I can think of that a fighter should have access to will be things akin to the classic 'taunt' - though something a little more ICly justifiable, such Horace's 'grapple' skill, or an 'engage', whereby the target receives so many focused attacks from the fighter that they have to face them or risk being butchered.

[Raona]

To my mind fighters are differentiated in D&D by their being the best manual combat kids: they have more hit points, more attacks, and better ACs than anyone else. You need one of them up front in order for the others in your party to do their thing well. When your fighter was low on HP, it was time to rest, or turn around and go home, because you needed them there up front!

That's not currently the case in FK. People don't *need* fighters. They are not, generally, the best combat machines available.

How to fix it, while also giving fighters roleplay advantages? I like a lot of the suggestions above! I really like making the fighter bash more powerful than others. Here are my own, that I didn't see above:

• Make stamina important to DEX AC adjustment. In a long slog, the nimble get tired, and are less nimble. But the fighter's heavy armour still works fine.
  
  Make some interesting, and more powerful, weaponry available only to fighters. Fighters can master any weapon. Add some that others would want to master, but can't. Maybe halberds, double-bladed axes, great blades; these should become only the station of the dedicated - fighters willing to train with them incessantly. Add some ranged weapon firepower for them too: heavy bolas that ensnare an enemy for a short time, heavy crossbows that stun, stuff like that. Weapons that make other classes say "gee, if we had a fighter, (s)he could whip a bola in there and tie up that evil mage for the first round, then use a halber to keep him back far enough that he has a tough time making touch attacks."
  
  Mercenary work (quests) available only to fighters, like serving in this army or that for a while, from which they get some fighter-only goodies. Perhaps they can even call in old favors from their old cavalry friends, summoning 1-4 NPC fighters to join a PC group while still in a normal FK city, once per week or month or something.
  
  More situations where a broad and deep knowledge of weapons is very valuable. NPCs issuing challenges to combat using specific, exotic weapons, perhaps. Or combat in confined spaces, or under water, requiring certain weapon types. (A bola's not going to work under water, and only great STR would let you swing a sword. Piercing would the call of the day, for example.)

Great brainstorm suggestions, Dalvyn!

p.s. I think plain warriors should be able to do most of what fighters do, but it would be harder and slower for them to learn. Fighters get as their main advantage access to the fighter's guild. Perhaps cap level in skills with age, make the cap rise much faster with fighters.

[Vibius]

If spellcasters can't cast spells AND attack at the same time (like in D&D) fighters suddenly become more relevant in a party, since clerics/wizards/rangers/bard will have to choice between cast a spell or attack, whereas the fighter will be always protecting/attacking making them more desired in a party.

[Selveem]

Rawlys said, in a nutshell, exactly what I felt needed to be said. Why are fighters called fighters..? Uh, because they fight! Longer and harder than anyone else. It's what they do. Fighters do _not_ necessarily have the highest AC. Priests have just as much and can make themselves more. Does this mean a fighter isn't the best tank? Technically speaking, yes. Does it mean you WANT the priest to always tank? Uh, no. If a fighter is set up properly, you'd much rather want them to tank.

This doesn't mean a fighter can't deal out melee damage. Oh, they can deal some melee damage. And, they are more likely to hit than any other class thanks to the feats and selections they get.

Does this mean they'll be able to solo more? Maybe. And so what? LOL, a Priest even without really great equipment can solo a Red Dragon! So can a wizard, actually. Fighter? Useless. How is that fair?

Part of making fighters more appealing is the ability, in the end, to be counted upon. In the past, I used to be hit up on my amulet of communication almost anytime someone died. As fighters were weakened multiple times to other classes, those calls came less frequently. I never thought about it as anything other than a blessing until today when I realized why: Because a fighter is less likely to succeed..

We need our combat abilities. Don't let the class remain as weak as it is.

Just because we can dish out melee damage doesn't mean we are now a solo class anymore than we already are. Were I more wasteful, Selveem probably still _could_ solo Undermountain. I don't know. I don't care. Why would I try? The traps still hurt. There's still a very, very high and very real chance of death. A trap hits you and then a Helmed Horror walks in? Screwed. I'm fighting a Lich? Oh, he's immune to melee weapons? Screwed.. These are all very real examples. There are plenty of mobs out there resistant to melee weapons or immune to them.

Our builders are inventive. I know this and I wouldn't dare not give them the credit they're due. As this remains fact, the areas they do not want soloable will remain for groups. These are further enforced with policies such as found in UM where wandering soloists are obliterated.

[Sindri]

I like the idea of adding something like grapple. Besides being useful in combat, it might also provide a neat alternative to sparring. Fighters could wrestle (or just arm-wrestle!) with each other instead of having fully armed duels -- it would be a quick comparison of pure strength and skill against each other without armour and weapons changing the equation.

Something like bull rush or feint might be neat too but I'm not sure how either of those would translate into FK terms.

[Orplar]

The prestige classes would make all sorts of interesting rp, however if it happens with fighters I thought it should happen with all the classes. Along that note, using fighters as the guinea pigs would be a great idea.


Grapple sounds like a great idea, along with feint as Sindri said.

Having fighters be hitting harder then most other classes would be good, along with my previous suggestion of giving a revamp to the two handed weapon system. In most cases that I have encountered, the strength multiplier doesn't count for much, so maybe have a large two handed weapon count as a low level shield that would allow bash, or someother sort of skill/bonus too it. If not bash maybe an up in AC? I dunno, just kinda thinking outloud.


With what Selveem said, man I remember when I first started playing that Selveem was just the most badass warrior you could find, and people would argue about getting him to come with this party or that party. Now, not so much, while I still view him as a great fighter, the class -has- lost its edge. Its great to know the players voice is heard and that something is being done about it. Thanks for it all! Im really in favor of most of these ideas, I'd be willing to lend a hand with whatever the staff needed to make something possible.

[Horace]

give fighters 5 feats upon joining the guild

give all fighter guilds that bar nonfighters a trainer who trains weapon focus and all weapon types, and toughness all the way to the top

could also implement a weapon specialization that is trained the same as weapon focus - throwing that on the trainer as well

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Those are just obvious addresses to concerns - but as it is right now I feel a heavy armor fighter does just fine, about anywhere, and what really needs to be addressed is what they can do for others. Folks just need to keep in mind that CON effects your HP every time you level. With 50 levels, that's a hell of a lot of HP you could be missing. No other stat is so unforgiving...perhaps making the HP gain retroactive, would help a lot of people who seem to be having problems. If you wait til level 30 to get hardened, you missed out on quite a lot of HP. I'm not positive it isn't retroactive, but I have a very strong suspicion it isn't. A mechanic like that, which isn't well known, can screw up a PC to the point where you might as well just make a new one.

I wanna suggest a War Cry. But I don't think there is a good effect for that which doesn't cross over into bard class function....maybe something that increases the chance for group members criticals for 1 specific combat (in theory, a hard one). The cost would be tons of stamina, up to 70%. Attribute it to barking orders.

I want to suggest "anticipation". Or Han shot first! Skill. A skill where if someone initiates combat (mob or PC) that there is a skill check against this skill, if the fighter succeeds the aggressors first free round is voided and the fighter effectively initiates the combat. I've seen over and over again that the difference between two 50 level fighters is darn near a 50% HP swing just based on who initiates the combat. A skill like that, alone, would incredibly boost the value of the fighter class. This skill would be even cooler if it could be toggled. I'd probably make out with whoever coded this.

Another thing could be adding class specific trades. One for fighters could be armor/weapon smithing. Also allowing this for Moradin priests and Gond priests. And if you don't want it class specific, at least make it easily accessible to those specific classes...leaving the other ones wherever they are. I have about 3000 hours on this game...or 375 work days. I have never been told in character, or overheard, how or where to learn those trades. Why make it so hard to learn when it's so incredibly class appropriate? It's a trade specific to their calling...you'd think learning a trade would be easier than killing a god, which everyone does.

That last one got more preachy than I wanted it to be. But to find a heavy piece of arm armor that doesn't damage, you either have to do a crazy quest that requires pretty much an FK real life party, or find one of 3 PC's who GM'd armor smithing. Good luck, for economy supply and demand, those pieces are easily worth 4000 platinum.

Not that that situation angers me, just frustrates me when I think about the logistics of it. I still love fighters. But even something like removing all armor/weapon damage, aside from IMM intervention or the beat command, would be a small thing that would increase the value of fighters. On the plus side, it's been a lot more kind to me lately, I think you guys may have addressed the damaging of items already...but I didn't hear anything about it.

[Lathander]

If spellcasters can't cast spells AND attack at the same time (like in D&D) fighters suddenly become more relevant in a party, since clerics/wizards/rangers/bard will have to choice between cast a spell or attack, whereas the fighter will be always protecting/attacking making them more desired in a party.

I think this is a very good point. There are three ways to go about making fighters more relevant - increase their abilities, decrease the abilities of others or a combination of both. Here are some suggestions I haven't yet read in this discussion, some expansions on a few that have been mentioned and my thoughts on some I don't like as much.

1. As per the above quote, modify combat for any spellcasting class so that one cannot both cast and physically attack at the same time. I would add that any spell, prayer or song that required no material or semantic component be allowed to occur simultaneously with a physical attack; however, their should be a penalty to the physical attack as the prayer/spell/song requires mental concentration that would take away from concentrating on the physical attack.

2. Increase the chance for spell disruption. In all of the FR books I've read, there are countless instances of spellcasters losing their spells when hit with a physical attack. Perhaps include in the combat system a d20 check for loss of the spell when hit and modify the check based on the damage done with the hit. Even go so far as to make any critical hit cause an automatic loss of the spell. Feats like "combat casting" and "concentration" would continue to be modifiers for the caster, but not so much as to make him/her completely immune to the chance of failure. This change would have two benefits to fighters. Casters would see more benefit in having fighters in their groups as a shield against all of those hits, and fighters would have a much better chance in those pvp situations of which Selveem seems so fond. I am sure it would be the same in combat situations vs mobs as well.

3. As has been stated, improve the durability of heavy armor. Consider a change in the way material affects armor and make the best metals damage much less severely. While we don't have to make it so that armor absorbs damage that might otherwise be inflicted upon the wearer, we can possilbe have armor points for armor similar to hit points for PCs. Material and craftsmanship could combine to determine the overall value and as damage is applied to the armor it wears down into current categories.

4. A possible trade that could be given to warriors (best via a quest) upon joining a fighter's guild would allow the PC to repair his/her own armor at minimal cost. The same could be applied to repairing weapons.

5. I do not think that presitge classes are the answer. They might be a cool option, but it doesn't address the issue at hand concerning the fighter class itself.

6. A taunt skill runs the risk of forcing a PC into doing something the player wouldn't want. I can easily anticipate cries of "foul" when a fighter uses a taunt skill to enrage an player opponent who feels that his/her character is too disciplined to ever fall for such a ruse. Even allowing for a wisdom-based saving throw might not be enough.