Treatment of priests

[Bugoron]

You have to keep in mind that every single class has its benefits and advantages over the others. Warriors offer their strength, mages their spellcrafting, rangers their navigation, and so on. This doesn't exclude Clerics and priests, who can play vital roles in a group, considering they are the representative of a deity and look after the well-being of all in their party with their healing magic. To abuse this is foolish.

Let's put it in perspective, shall we? A mage who, for some reason or another (we'll say he's battling something) orders a warrior to help him, bossing him around like he's a tavern wench. One of two things is likely to happen: One, the warrior will look at the mage, laugh, and maybe get a snack as he watches the ignorant puke die, or Two: He'll run in, sock the mage between the eyes, then let him die, odds the difference. The moral here: no one wants to take abuse off of anyone, including clerics, and there is no difference between mistreating a priest from any other class. where a warrior will bring a sword down on your head for your disrespect, a cleric can just bring down the wrath of his deity on your head.

That's my piece, I just hope things get cleared up, if they haven't yet.

[Penryn]

Curiousity, Over the past few months my character has raised at least 20 to 30 people. He normally gives a requirement that corellon told him for the raising. It isnt anything too hard to do if someone has patience and wishes to explore a bit. But over the times of the 30 people raised only 3 have ever paid off this debt. Some have even died twice and still havent paid it off to the Faithful of Corellon. What should I do for this instance? As a protector of elves I am supposed to always help elves yet if they are disrespecting my god can I not raise them? Not help them?

It is supposed to be a huge deal really as it is raising the dead, a miracle in all aspects. Yet, at the same It is something that is needed in game aspects. I am sorta in a quandry over it, balancing of mechanics vs ic realism. I would appreciate any words of advice before I decide what ic stance my character will take.

Sincerely,
Jeffery
Rper of Penryn

[Bugoron]

This is serious RP, and a mortal bringing back another mortal from the dead is a miracle in any respect. Such a thing should be recompensed in almost any circumstance, as it is extremely taxing on the priest and something that no average joe can do. For me, when I am asked to raise, I tend to ask for no more than what can repay the component(s) used, but if they would like to add more to that, they are most welcome (seeing as how the WERE dead, and kinda owe you :-=). I guess it varies from cleric to cleric, but I think it's only right to at least be repayed for what was used in the raising.

[Rhytania]

Ok Im gonna try and state my words carefully here, Penryn. Myself having performed too many raises to count have learned to trust less and less in the average character. Too many have died and called me and had me stop whatever im doing to go and raise them and I dont mind, I love that aspect of the RP, I even incorporate that into my RP as almost being expected of me. However how many of them do you see afterwards? They say they will repay, they say they'll do whatever you ask but it hardly comes true. The rare few that do keep their word and repay or donate or do anything remotely kind in return I will risk neck and limb to bring them back. However after spending countless hundreds of Plat on buying gems to not see them returned or repaid, I started feeling no quandries in picking through the corpse to find money or the component itself. I have even gone so far as to not carry them anymore so when people ask me to raise I will go into their belongings and pull out only what is neccessary to buy the gem. I explain this to people and it seems to work better since you do not lose anything and they will not have anything owed to you. The tricky thing about this is to no look like a looter so that is why I always try and have a witness by to insure that I do not get blamed for something I did not do.

[Rhelian]

This was discussed on the old boards if I remember correctly. A suggestion was if you raise people and they don't repay what was asked, you don't raise them again. You pass word to other faithful, and they won't either. If things are serious enough, you give an account to your God and let them know - but you have to be careful incase some are trying to get the coin together, find an item to replace the gem, or simply haven't been on the same time you are.

[Cret]

Also, as some of the evilys know, If they dont pay.. Kill them again. Every thing has a price...

[Stayne]

I tend to agree with what Rhelian has said. Though I would add a modifier. When I raise someone, I make a note of name, and whatever I sent them for or asked. Depending on my char and the situation I will ask for lots of different things. Sometimes easy - sometimes impossible (the later I often do with long term players, or good RP'ers just to see what they do
While I do expect alot of the older chars and player should have NO problems meeting simple requests, I often do not expect Newbies to be able to do so. Like Rhytania - I have worked in raising dead as a function of my char. I have had newbies that I have been encouraging die 3-4 times in the space of a few hours, simply because they are that unfamiliar with the game, or where rushing around and not being carefully (the amount of people that drown because they type a direction one too many times is stuipd!). In many cases if I know a player is newbie, my request will be something like - go see <x> PC and ask about something. ie. I will try and do something to get them more familiar with the game. Rather than a RP task. Often I might not do anything, as I tend to encourage newbies as often as I can (Sometimes to the point of dropping RP altogether just to help them).

But for the non-newbie char. If they have not done the request then I would shun them IC. Let them know they have offended your god. Do not raise them again. etc.

And as Cret said - for those who have been raised by an evil PC like Stayne. Expect to get a visit...

That aside here is what I would encourage all players to remember :
Priests -
Try and judge the newbie-hood of the person you are raising and take that into account to their RP and compensation.
Make sure all players understand the effort it is to raise them even if you have to let them know OOC.
Assign a quest appropriate if you do so. Even something presenting a parchment with the names of 3 NPC's in waterdeep that repair armour, is a great way to teach a new player.
Let other players know IC that you raised someone. If someone well known has failed your God in a task for their life, that info will get around and the player will feel its affect. Praying to your God to let them know might also be on the cards.

Players -
DO NOT expect that just because a priest can raise a char, that they WILL drop everything and attend you. If they can't, please do not berate them in any form. Those who have had long term priests have made alot of sacrifices that you might not know of, please show some respect to that player.
If a priest does raise you and requests something. It is of paramount importance, for to not respect a god can lead to the wrath of that god, and in turn possibly the wrath of your own should you have one.
If you have problems fullfilling the requirements, do not be afraid to go back and say so. I have often given out quests that I did not realise where too hard, we are not tyrants (mostly
Do not look at these quests as being a "task" that you have to get done to get back to playing. It is not. It is RP. Use it as a chance to explore your char more. Perhaps even create a story based upon your exp. Involve others in your quest perhaps.
Finally - if a priest does come to visit you, even if they are of a "Good" god, about your quest, show respect. Even if it is a level 1 priest and you are a level 50 and could wipe the floor with them, code is not relevant. That priest has been sent by their God as to why you have no respect for the effort the God went to to bring you back. Even if the God is not there, RP-wise I am sure they are, and backing that priest with their powers ( a scary though always). Even "Good" gods get angry

Remember - the mud is only limited by your imagination - have fun

-Stayne

[Tychina]

I used to carry some of those pink gems around with me, I would have atleast one on my person no matter what I was doing, just in case. It was the only component I knew of that was needed. I cannot seem to find them any more though; I think something else is used now. Whenever I figure out what, and where it is sold, I will likely go back to doing that, just to cut down on their expenses when resurrecting me or a friend. *shrug* It just seems like common courtesy to me.

On the other side, how does one offer a priest/cleric payment/compensation for their services without offending them?

More then one of my characters had this experience, and offending the priest that just helped them was certainly not their intention. In the end I stopped offering payment/compensation, and just started asking if there was anything I could do for them in return. it seems to not offend them as offering payment did. But I am always told there is nothing I can do anyway. Which often has me offering the use of my help/services should they need it at some future date. For the most part that is fine, but it isn't exactly IC for some of my characters. In these instances, would asking them to accept a donation, in the name of their chosen deity/church be acceptable? And if so, again, how does one who tends to be lacking erm.. tact (me) do this without offending the person whom was just kind enough to resurrect you and/or your friend/s etc. Also, how much of a donation should be offered?

Just a thought, but if priests DON’T charge for their services, then how in the world do they make their money for living? Personally, I would have no problem with paying for services rendered, would in some cases, prefer it actually.

[Tierney]

I havn't been raised in a very very long time, but when followers of a particular god help me with something, I'll real quick read the help file on that god and find out what the god likes. Then I'll offer that to either the priest, or offer to make a donation of it to the temple. Like flowers for Sune, swords for Tempus, or even gems for Lloth

[Tychina]

When you as a priest bring a player back from the dead, does it cost you favor?

As a player, when a priest brings you back, does it cost you favor?

[Lea]

To answer your question no neither lose favor. Since there are many who die that do not follow gods.

[Jadom]

That might actually be a good idea though. Have a minor (or maybe bigger) favor cost for the spell. Would make it clear for all involved that the Gods don't grant the power to bring back the dead lightly.

Of course, that is my opinion as someone who doesn't have to worry about favor

[Isaldur]

Thing is Jadom, priests that are actually in a Guild need a certain favorlevel to cast certain spells, like say..

You can't cast Resurrect unless you favor status is Loved

etc.

Taking away favor only hurts the people trying to help when it's those who neglect to replay the kindness who should be punished.

[Dominik]

I just have to add onto Isaldur's post. For some deities, obviously, kindness would not be the greatest idea to show. And for some, I would think even that a resurrected character may show some complete different reaction to the one who resurrected them. For example...A Lovite is resurrected by a follower of Ilmater. Does anyone really expect kindness, there? And then, say, Ilmater deigns to punish him or her for mistreating His priest. Understandable...but what if Loviatar stepped in? Or lets just take out the Gods altogether. I know my own Lovite character would be extremely upset with the Ilmite (is that the right word?) who dared aid him in any way. So I think, OOCly, people should not always be punished, or shunned, for not RPing kindness to the priest who was kind enough to resurrect or aid them. IC, however...well, if that character's God deigned to punish the person for mistreating His or Her priest...well, I know it isn't the first time my character's been cursed.

[Tychina]

*nods* that is why I asked, I had heard that priests had to have a certain favor level to cast certain spells, but I did not know if they lost the favor in the casting. I would not suggest the priest loses favor for casting, but I was going to suggest the dead lose favor upon returning to life.

But then again, what of those players who chose no god, or who have not been faithed by their chosen god yet? They won't have any favor, so their only recourse would be to set around and wait for a deity to come on to bring them back. This would make things annoying for them, as well as the Deities I think.

Just trying to think of a way to help solve the problem, have discussed it with a couple friends, and so far the costing of favor was all we could think of.

I also wondered about logging, I know some skills are logged when you use them, I was wondering if there was a way to log when raise dead was used, who it was used by/on etc, whatever pertinent information was needed to check up on that person later and make sure they paid their debt. Alternatively, the priests could maybe keep a notepad beside their comp and make note of who they raised and when, how the person acted/treated them, if payment was offered, given etc..

Not sure if any of that is really feasible, but I figured I'd post, discuss, and maybe we could all get some ideas out here. One of which would hopefully be a solution to the problem, without causing the IMM's too much extra work.

[Nikkos]

The salient point of this thread is that if you call someone for help - not when help is pressed upon you without your desire, knowledge, or assent but when you actively seek assistance from other players - then you show a bit of courtesy and respect. Whether help is in the form of battling dragons, having a few spells cast on you, or being raised from the dead, acknowledge that someone has gone out of his or her way to respond. This is most especially important when being given the gift of life.

Most of the priests I know do keep tabs on who pays and who doesn't. However, when they refuse to raise someone who has not paid a previous debt, that person often gets belligerent. I have even had people try to tell me what was most important for my priest to be doing at that time and how my goddess would feel if I did not drop everything and take care of them right now. It is incredibly presumptuous to assume you know what the god/goddess of that priest would deem more important.

I repeat what I asked when we discussed this on the old board: How much is your life worth to you?

[Beshaba]

I'd like to clear up what I think are a few misconceptions that I have seen in the game. Remember that we Imms see alot more than most people think...

No one has the right to come back from the dead.

The prayers to return someone to the living are a very rare and precious gift, granted to the priests of a god and usable only by those who are favoured in the eyes of that god. This is not granted to the priest so that they can be abused and have demands made of them. A priest must be very careful in whom they bring back and when they do it, if their god is displeased at the action, then they may well take it out on the priest. The gift of return to life is exactly that, a gift, not a right.

No priest has a 'duty' to raise the dead as a given fact.

Once again, the ability to recall the dead is a rare and precious gift. Just casually flipping through Faiths and Avatars I cannot find a single god offered in FK as a coded following option that has it listed in the dogma of the faith that they must return the dead to life. A follower of Lathander may do it in order to give someone a second chance at rebirth, but I do not see anywhere that it is someone's duty to raise the dead. Once again, it is a special gift and should not be abused or taken for granted.

Not paying your debts to a priest is BAD.

There have been a few times in which I have raised someone as Beshaba and demanded in return that they do something for me. My requirements are made very plain before the action is complete. Agreeing and then not following through will result in me coming along and slaying the person in question after their time is up. If someone were to neglect to repay one of my priests, I would do the exact same thing. Why? Because the ability came from me, if the debt was not repaid, then it was the same as if it was not repaid to me. This is not the path that all gods may take, I am notorious for being a spiteful, vindictive, and petty goddess, but there are other forms of retribution that can be taken by a god who feels insulted. Asking someone to raise you again when you have not paid off your prior debts is not the wisest thing to do, once again, this is a gift from a god, if you are not showing a proper appreciation for that god, the gift should be denied.[/b]

[Tychina]

I am aware that priests with no god or low level cannot raise dead, as well as needing favor level high enough, I was just unsure if they lost the favor upon casting the spell.

My comment about those with no deity was referring more to those whom die and need raised, as if it took favor from the dead upon returning, then those without could not return without devine intervention directly.

Like I said, I know the ideas are not the solution, my aim was merely to try to get a discussion going, get ideas flowing, so we could work at finding a solution.

[Tychina]

Most of the priests I know do keep tabs on who pays and who doesn't. However, when they refuse to raise someone who has not paid a previous debt, that person often gets belligerent.

mm perhaps, said priest could then inform IMM's, and perhaps this could be something that will earn a strike? Say player 1 dies, player 2 casts raise dead, player one refuses to pay, and/or is disrespectful of the priest and his/her god, player 2 then makes a note of that, refuses to raise player 1 again till he/she learns the error of their ways, if at all. Player 1 dies again, player 2 refuses to bring them back to life, player 1 gets snippy, rude etc, verbally abusing player 2 ic and/or oc, player 2 then reports it to IMM’s, with a log of the verbal abuse, whereupon player 1 finds themselves at some point visited by a deity in the void or somewhere and given a talking to, along with a strike.

As my understanding goes, after so many strikes a player is banned from the game, not just the one character, but all of his/her characters, though I could be wrong on that. If this is the case, it would either get the rude person to see the light and drop the rudeness etc., or in the end, get so many strikes they are removed from the game and no longer pose a problem.

Just some probably less then helpful thoughts, from a weary elf who means well.

[Dominik]

But getting belligerent IC wouldn't, I think, be nearly so bad as OOC. Some people's characters simply ARE belligerent, and such, when confronted, refused, or anything else. Now, admittedly, there's a point where that goes out the window and it simply becomes ridiculous harassment, completely unnecessary and just plain rude. But I think saying, IC, "Raise me, you fool!" would be a LOT more understandable than saying the same thing OOCly.