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i under stand that cloth is avaible for one feather and studded leather and weapons for two feather memebers and chainmail armour for three feather members. I was wondering would it be possible for Express to sell Full plate or Half plate armour to FOUR feather members? I think it would be nice to buy decent plate armour without it being all black or require you to be in a faith to get it. So if this is possible i think it would be a good idea

Banded or Half plate, yeah. Doesn't seem right to be able to get full plate from a low level quest area. Just my opinion, of course.

I'm not so sure about that... I mean it would be nice to find some decent full plate... that isn't faithed, but it should have some sort of a major cost, cause even if u are faithed it's pretty expensive, and it is that way because it's kind of a privilage of hard work and grinding and saving to have it. It doesn't seem fair to those who had to work really hard to get it. Or maybe a larger quest that isn't low area. I don't think full plate should really be worn until you are well into leveling. Just my thoughts.

Okay, *begin rant*:

First of all, the scarcity of full plate on FK is ridiculous.

We've got TONS of half plate armor for sale and even high level quest armor for sale that is all _half_ plate. Let's be honest: most of it is garbage (for example, "rusty gauntlets"). As for magical Half Plate, no one but a moron would bother enchanting half plate armor unless they were just a cheap bastard or some special, personal reason (I.E. your faith).

Full Plate takes the same amount of time to wear (when hurried or not) and remove, weighs the same amount, and inhibits movement speed the exact same amount as Half Plate. Any way you slice it, the only _good_ reason to purchase Half Plate over Full Plate is the price (Half Plate costs 40% less [or _should_]).

Reasons why Half Plate is crap in comparison wrote:Full plate receives less armor check penalty.
Full Plate receives more AC bonus, even without the +1 Dex Bonus it allows.
Full Plate has even less Spell Failure % chance.
Full Plate has even less Armor Check Penalty (when using skills such as swim, sneak, etc.)

Anyone who thinks Full Plate armor should be limited is being unfair/narrow-minded; it's what Fighters, Paladins, and Clerics are notorious for wearing when they can afford it. It's no different than saying "Uh, yeah, I'm thinking we should limit the amount of studded leathers in the game 'cause they're the cream of the crop for most Dex-based classes like Thieves, Bards, Rangers, and Druids."

Even Masterwork scarcity on FK is ludicrous. In normal D&D, you can start off buying that crap provided your starting location would have it and/or your DM isn't being a jerk.

I get wanting to have special things. Really, I do, but is it really worth it for _normal_ armor? Leave the 'special' in the Magical armors. Even Masterwork, if you must, but I don't believe it fair to suggest _normal_ armor be rare.

As for the idea, I fully support it. Any more non-menacing-looking Plate armor in the game, I'm all for. Actually, plate in general.

Thank you for your time.

*end rant*

I agree with what Selveem said. I don't know the nuances of half-plate/full-plate as well as him, but there is one thing I'd like to addon:

Moranall has done many things and collected quite an ensemble of gear. However, almost all of it is half-plate. It's really frustrating at the amount of damage I take on Moranall, a fighter, compared to my priest and mages. Warriors/Fighters have no damage reduction aside from armour/dodge/parry. Dodge and parry are very minimal in this game. So, armour is the way I have to go reduce the amount of damage I should be taking.

Unfortunately, I have very little choices in regards to full-plate. And now with the armoursmithing changes (which I fully endorse, by the way), it's even more difficult to obtain.

I agree that with the new AC system, all type of non magical armor should be easily findable in low/average quality from the basic material. I would prefer to see low quality in shops and leave the rest to PC crafters but average can be acceptable in more high quality shops.

Now, for the oh crap, my fighter takes far more damage than my mages, well... being in full palte instead of Half plate won't change thing... it is how DnD is designed, nothing beats a badass HL mage or priest.
Nothing but very precise preparations specific to the mage or priest that is your target.

Yet, what would help, would be to make mundane wondrous items much more common, which is the case in DnD.
I'm speaking about object with a caster level under 10, ring of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +1, cloak of protection +1, ect.
I can easily see them being sold by Bradigan, they are supposed to be very common items and will foundable widely in Faerun.
That would already be a big help for melee classes.

Brar

It seems I was misunderstood... shocking, hehe.

My only concern was full plate being sold in a newbie area. It may just be my opinion, but I consider the delivery company as a newbie quest hub. I don't understand why a newbie would have relatively easy access to the best armor in game short of enchanted or PC crafted. I was not trying to imply full plate should be restricted in general, merely in this particular location. When you can get the best equipment at lvl 15, it just doesn't seem right to me.

Now, as for full plate in general... Personally, I don't care if every type of armor is sold at a NPC shop, as long as the price stays true to its value. Full plate should take time to save up for and not be a quick decision, at least from shops. What PC crafts sell their armor for is their decision. They put in the time and effort to craft that armor and an investment like that should have some rewards, such as setting their own prices. The only time a NPC shop should sell full plate for less than the usual big bucks might be faith items. Discounts for faith members makes sense, after all. Not free or anything, but a 5-10% discount for members wouldn't be that bad.

PC crafted armor tends to be superior to store bought, often in defense rating and frequency of repairs, depending on metal used. As long as this advantage remains, NPC shops can have all the lower quality full plate they want. But, as I said... in a newbie quest hub doesn't feel right. *shrug*

then perhaps we could just get either half plate of banded plate armour in ED? mostly I am asking because we have cloth for the no armour proficncy and lether for the first level then chainmail ofr the second but we have nothing for the third.

Brar wrote:Yet, what would help, would be to make mundane wondrous items much more common, which is the case in DnD. I'm speaking about object with a caster level under 10, ring of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +1, cloak of protection +1, ect. I can easily see them being sold by Bradigan, they are supposed to be very common items and will foundable widely in Faerun. That would already be a big help for melee classes.

Yeah, I see that Brar but FK has never been like that.

I have yet to see anything about a +2 enchant - including weapons. If they exist in game, they're either a supplicated item or an Imm reward.

I do sincerely hope that crafting takes flight and that Masterwork armors will eventually be allowed to be Enchanted because I feel it will diversify PCs out there who want to be able to specialize their characters.

I think builders have been wary of putting things like that in the game because of balance issues (that simply wouldn't exist in my opinion). That's one of the reasons that when "full plate" was introduced, you saw there were only a few items of it.

Selveem wrote: Yeah, I see that Brar but FK has never been like that.

Indeed, that's why I suggest a change.
The current system of magic rareness is based of an old armor / weapon system where a magic flag made you into a superman and quite invulnerable.

That is not the case anymore with the new combat system, so the ban on magic should be lift in my opinion, now what we need if it becomes true is builders to makes it happen

Now for the topic at hand, I see no problem with all type of armor being available anywhere, because being able to buy it don't mean you have the coins to do so. And the money is the real restriction here.

Brar

Mundane full plate is currently the best heavy armour in game - but there are big plans afoot to correct and diversify that. Depending on how it goes and how the circulation of magical items develops in the aftermath, it may be that these items become easier to attain, but our first step isn't going to be to put them on vendors I'm afraid!

Back to the question at hand - why would a delivery company with an emphasis on its express service forge and sell its own heavy armour? I can understand a desire to find a more easily accessible source of this currently coveted equipment, but asking for the Express Deliveries to stock it sounds like a case of trying to make the glove fit.

Looking outside of these NPC-run organisations and temples etc, is there a general feeling on the current shops? Should all grades of mundane equipment be available (at a price!) in most cities from the get-go, or should people have to earn them? Would trivialising the search for new equipment make matters dull, or is it a much needed step towards the game's improvement? Is it the same for weapons? I'm interested to know what people think here!

Looking outside of these NPC-run organisations and temples etc, is there a general feeling on the current shops?
Not sure what this means..
Should all grades of mundane equipment be available (at a price!) in most cities from the get-go, or should people have to earn them?
Technically, I believe it should be, but I think for now I'd rather it wasn't. I do feel that all _types_ of armor and weapons should be available, but only up to average quality. I also think the more special materials should not be available via vendor (like, say titanium, mithril, adamantite), but since Drow already have access to wide reserves of admantite suits, maybe it's alright for those to be available too but just in average quality.
Would trivialising the search for new equipment make matters dull, or is it a much needed step towards the game's improvement? Is it the same for weapons?
I think it's quite the opposite; I remember when I was first starting my bard for this game, I wanted to get a full set of "white and silver studded leather" only to find out of all the merchants, only a few pieces were available. I think people enjoy going out and finding armor. It doesn't all have to match, in my opinion, but a wide variety makes things seem less stale. Though, admittedly, I do like to be able to find a full set of matching armors.

I do think it's a very necessary step for the game to have more armor types available (and, of course, I'm not just talking about full plate [though it's one of my biggest gripes]). This includes minor magical for medium-level quests and moderate-strong magical for high-end quests.

The same goes for weapons. Know how many magical net weapons there are in game? I've never seen one.

Lathlain wrote: Back to the question at hand - why would a delivery company with an emphasis on its express service forge and sell its own heavy armour? I can understand a desire to find a more easily accessible source of this currently coveted equipment, but asking for the Express Deliveries to stock it sounds like a case of trying to make the glove fit.

They don't have to forge it, but they can have it branded with their insignia (or whatever sign of ownership), for reputation sake.

Lathlain wrote:Looking outside of these NPC-run organisations and temples etc, is there a general feeling on the current shops? Should all grades of mundane equipment be available (at a price!) in most cities from the get-go, or should people have to earn them? Would trivialising the search for new equipment make matters dull, or is it a much needed step towards the game's improvement? Is it the same for weapons? I'm interested to know what people think here!

My opinion is, 5 category of stuff:
Nonmagical:
1 - Mundane fighting equipment should be available in every city/ big villages, (plain version(no color code, plain steel, lowest quality) goes for armors up to chainmail, simple weapons.

2 - Common fighting equipment should be available in big cities (WD, Silverymoon, Westgate, ZK), (plain version(no color code, plain steel, lowest quality) armor up to full plate, simple and martial weapons.

3 - Exotic and better equipment should be available from unique shops in limited supply, average quality armor, exotic weapons, colorized /marked / stamped armors.

Magical Stuff:
4 - Everything +1 should be accessible in any good magic item shops around, even in big city's general store they should have on or two ring of prot +1.

5 - Other stuff could be available on very limited supply on very special hard to reach vendor or more widely as quest / loot rewards, concordant to area level.
What I call loot reward is what you would find while exploring a dungeon.

Brar

I agree with Brar, yes now I understand why it won't or can't be sold in ED but Just make the lwoest level possible full plate and sell that that way more people can do more things just at a price.

As I said before, it doesn't bother me when NPCs stock armor because PC crafts are better, usually. Gilain's crafts need to be repaired far less often than NPC alternative and some types offer better defense. As long as this standard remains the same, every armor shop can offer NPC 'average' quality... same with weapons. Pricing should remain at the respectable high values. Its a good idea to have more full plate options, now that crafting takes longer. Lower quality plate is better than no plate while waiting on the PC smith to get around to your order.

The description point is an interesting thought though. A general store or off the street shop should stock simple 'steel breastplate' while the more exotic shops could sell the more decorative names and color options. Custom armor shops could adopt the code used in the shops that offer full suits of clothing for 10 platinum, just pay (more than 10 platinum) and pick your options. Still, no exotic metals... simple steel. I don't mind all kinds of armor in shops, but full suits of mithril or elven steel don't seem right.

Not commenting on enchanted gear. Plans are in the works for enchanting and I don't want to think about adding magical stock to NPC shops til I see how current plans play out.

Lathlain: I think that you know my opinion because we've talked about this, but I'll throw my hat in the ring here for the group's benefit.

I believe that every place should have different, complete sets of armor. I agree with Selveem in thinking that there can be some novelty to trying to find matching pieces across Faerun, but it's also nice to have a uniform set of equipment in a game where so much depends on the appearance of the text. I do not believe that plate harnesses should be so available though and I have two reasons: first, I believe that they are accessible enough for their intended audiences (fighters, paladins, and some clerics) and, secondly, because you cheapen their worth by making them too available. Munitions-grade (that is cheap, lower quality, mass-produced) gear is one thing, but this is generally produced for an army specifically by contract. Hilmer would probably blanche at the idea of selling a shoddy product because his name is built on the quality of his work. In short, I'm not sure that I see the need and I think that too much plate armor may be out of character.

Full plate armor was expensive to produce and remained therefore restricted to the upper strata of society

Lets not forget that 99% percent of men-at-arms in the middle ages mostly wore chain or scale, even the most wealthy of them could only afford a few solid plates. Now adventurers are much richer than the common folk I know but even with all the money in the world it wouldn't make this stuff easier to find, the smith would have to be exceptionally skilled and it would take a lot of labour and time to make it to specifications.

FK is based on the setting of DnD but the way it's economy runs can be entirely different.

As for matching sets though I would agree, if a few more sets were to make it onto the game in the near future that is a positive I would draw from it.

Well, I have two things to remind here.

First, we are in a fantasy settings, not an historical one. You don't have thousands of goblins slaves working in forges during the middle age, you don't have magic enhanced forges, dragons with hordes bigger than all the world historical riches, you hadn't dwarves living centuries and focused on smelting and finding riches from the underdark and such, ect ect ect
You can't compare middle-age and a fantasy setting and stay coherent.
pc
Second, for once I will speak about balance. The Monsters races in DnD are created and designed considering character have access to the adequat equipment for their level. I don't have the chart under the eyes, but right now our PCs are already far underpowered compare to the Challenge Rating of monsters (the first to begin to speak about pvp here gets the spanking ).
The lack of the most mundane magic items is one thing, the lack of suitable armor is another. A fighter is supposed to have acquire a nonmagic Full Plate equivalent by level 7/8 in DnD (17/20 in FK) to keep on the challenge rating, and fighters are the heavily gear dependant type in the game. After that cap they are supposed to rely on magic items to enhance their AC (protection ring, cloak, ect), such means are already close to inexistant in FK, so I think limiting armor type you can acquire only ad to the already high difficulty.

And a last thing (I know it's 3 now but well..) If the problem is too give the "best" armor, then should we not remove the armor spell to be castable on rogue? I mean, a naked high dex with armor and slink and a high dex have more ac than anybody in a Full Plate... and I only speaks of level 1 and 2 spells here :p

Or (beginning hardcore again), we go full hardcore. We add the crafting time for brew and scrolls writing like in the rules (half a day by spell level), we remove natural healing, we implemented spell per day instead of spell by 5 minutes, ect ect... I'm all for it, you know that

And one real last , we're speaking about low quality armor here, that should be of interest for nobody beyond level 30... so it is only a mid level helping suggestion.

Brar

Brar wrote:A fighter is supposed to have acquire a nonmagic Full Plate equivalent by level 7/8 in DnD (17/20 in FK) to keep on the challenge rating, and fighters are the heavily gear dependant type in the game. After that cap they are supposed to rely on magic items to enhance their AC (protection ring, cloak, ect), such means are already close to inexistant in FK, so I think limiting armor type you can acquire only ad to the already high difficulty.

Brar: you missed my one point to focus on the other. Every fighter in the game has at least one source of plate armor available. It may not be their favorite color, but they can get a different set in time. Every paladin in the game has a source of plate armor. Every cleric who joins a faith has a source of plate armor. There are sets sold in several cities accessible to anyone. We are actively working on the magical item issue at this time. What's the issue then?

If you perceive a lack of gear then please identify it and we will, of course, look into it, but this discussion has gotten mired in subjective conversations.

Well, I have yet to find a shop that sells full plate... but if you say that it is easily accesible then that's good, I'm horrible at searching things

If they are accessible I don't even understand the point of the discussion either...

Oh and it was more to Briek that I was answering in fact

Brar