Mount murder

[Theleus]

I've not been on lately because I've been busy, but I talked to the guy that plays Nelix and apparently someone stole his horse, rode it into the westgate carnival and got the undead there to kill it. When he found the horse there, he got another horse only to have that one stolen and killed in the same manner too. I find this absolutely outrageous. And apparently he used ask and was told that if he doesn't stable his mount then it's his fault. I am just so outraged by what he said that I had to post it on the forum. Mounts should be off limits.

[Nysan]

So, someone lost two mounts in the same fashion: "stolen and killed in Westgate"? What was the timeline like here? If two mounts were stolen and killed within 24 RL hours, that comes off a bit extreme to me. Over several RL weeks, I can see possible reasoning behind it.

Either way, mounts/pets are part of the character. One should be certain they RP properly any lasting interaction with a coded pet... especially killing. I hope the one that stole/killed these mounts did a bit more than snatch, kill, and loot.

[Theleus]

So, someone lost two mounts in the same fashion: "stolen and killed in Westgate"? What was the timeline like here? If two mounts were stolen and killed within 24 RL hours, that comes off a bit extreme to me. Over several RL weeks, I can see possible reasoning behind it.

Either way, mounts/pets are part of the character. One should be certain they RP properly any lasting interaction with a coded pet... especially killing. I hope the one that stole/killed these mounts did a bit more than snatch, kill, and loot.

Well, as far as I know there was no looting, just snatch and kill, and both incidents were last night, I think he said. The first was killed and he bought a second in order to carry the belongings that the first one had, but he left it sitting outside the carnival while he was clearing the undead to get to the remains of the horse and when he came back out the replacement horse was gone and ended up dead too.

[Enig]

Heya!

If you think something improper is going on here you should urge your friend to report the situation to the complaints forum.

Thanks

[Theleus]

A couple corrections I was asked to make:
I was corrected, apparently the second horse wasn't killed, just stolen. I misunderstood him there

The other thing I was asked to say was that the person he spoke to using ask said mounts fair game, not that it was his fault. Though, in my mind there's not much difference between the two. Sorry for my minor mistakes. But still, killing one horse is outrageous to me.

[Nysan]

Echoing Enig's comment. If your friend is not happy with the help he received from Ask and still wants this looked into, they should post in the complaint forums.

My comments on mounts are not FK official policy, so please don't take my first post as 'the word' or anything.

I don't know what happened, likely never will. Going off just what was posted here, nothing more... If wacking mounts is your thing, fine. Remember, that mount belongs to someone. Its not just another mob to grind. I don't expect everyone to look at mounts as part of the character, as I do, but at least RP a bit when it is something that belongs to another player. Heck, look at all the rules we have attached to the 'steal' skill and looting player corpses. A little RP footwork for pets/mounts isn't too much to ask.

[Selveem]

I'd like to preface this with: I like Nelix. I don't know his player personally, but I've talked with his character a few times. I'm not going to chide you with the 'there's a complaints process in place, use it instead of venting on the forums' crap because we all need to vent at times; I'm guiltier than probably anyone else on this MUD (and I appreciate you all dealing with it, truly!).

I, like you obviously, don't like bad befalling anyone, especially someone who seems like a nice enough guy. However, with that being said:

We all play by the rules of this game. The rules of this game dictate we are all responsible for our minions and what we do with them. Should ill befall them due to our negligence, then it is truly on us.

I don't know the specific circumstance. It's entirely possible he wasn't negligent as an owner and he was simply the victim of some poorly roleplayed minion killing; I don't know. What I do know is that I personally have killed peoples pets in the past as part of my character's roleplay who targeted neglected pets. Why? Because he was a thief. Because he had guild members to feed. Because he was greedy. Because he's an opportunist. But ultimately, because someone didn't take the time to care enough to avoid leaving their pets standing in 30+ piles of their own dung at their hooves/feet.

There's a reason why we have stables in the game. There's a reason why there's a justice system here. There's a reason why we have special exceptions made for leaving pets in reasonable parts of towns that don't have stables. It's not to be hard-nosed pricks, but to give people the opportunity to avoid something like this from happening to them.

I have no doubt this isn't what you want to hear, but it's just the way it works.

[Selveem]

Oh, and for the record: It wasn't me.

[Brar]

A few helpfiles I advice everyone to read. Complaints. Other people property. Haressment. Mounts. Murder. Roleplay.

I have two problems for this situation. The frequency and the settings.
First it would take a very strong man to drag a horse in an area filled with infrad and smelling death.
Now doing it once is ok. Doing it twice on the same player the same day sounds a bit too much for me Oocly if not roleplayed properly. Ask a ransom, give the pc a chance to get his mount back Even a quick otell to make sure it is not a new player who does not know about stabling.

Last but not least' if the horse was made killed by deviate means to not use the murder command and be logged then there is a blatant code abuse that should be look into.

Now, loosing a mount is not something dire that can t be RPed out.

About the ask channel answer, I had a bad experience with a member last week while asking for a vnum to make a proper bug report and was answered wrong and harshly. But remember that even the member of the helping answerer are humans. Sometimes a little comprehension on all the parties involved is necessary to achieves our common goal that is better fun for everyone.
This is particulary true when the answer is not what you wish to hear.

Brar

[Selveem]

I think it's important to remember we don't know the full details, so before any soapboxes are pulled out, I believe that should be taken into consideration.

Maybe I'm wrong and the full details and log are known, but unless that's the case it shouldn't be talked about as if the entirety is known. There are a number of situations that could have occurred that would have caused the horse to die wherever it did. You don't have to _drag_ a tamed horse somewhere in a distant place like that. You can simply ride it. It doesn't know where your destination. Their freaking Int score is a 2, not a 10. They weren't necessarily intentionally murdered by proxy. If they were attacking undead and the horse was targeted for whatever reason (assist, spell, whatever), then it is possible the horse would die. Sure, twice in a row seems a stretch, but as all the details are unknown I don't think it's fair to assume the worst.

I'm not trying to defend whoever did it; it wasn't my horse, so I have no motivation for either side. But I just don't agree with the whole witch hunt/mob mentality that some of these posts seem to foster when we don't even have all the information.

At the same time, you need to remember that this player gained access to the horses in a city that _has_ an active stable service. Brar is the one so in love with the "IC actions have IC consequences." caveat so freely advertised in help PK. Moral of the story is stable your pets in areas with valid stabling systems as far as I'm concerned. I apologize to Nelix's player in advance because it sounds rather cold, but that's how I feel about it.

[Harroghty]

Enough. Parties involved may post a complaint if they choose to do so, but there is no need to allow one alleged incident (of which we know nothing really) become fodder for arguments and bickering between more players than were even involved. This is not worth other, uninvolved people getting excited about to the point where we are disparaging others' comments on the issue.

We all must share one little happy ASCII world, after all. So keep it civil.

More to the point: What do you all think about attacking mounts? Should it be allowed? What criteria would you assign to those situations?

[Theleus]

Well, Nelix did say that he had suspicions about who had done it, and there was rp of some sort of rivalry between them, but he didn't tell me who because he didn't seem to know for sure. Anyway, I'll try to get Nelix to bring up the correct details, but when he was complaining about what happened to me he did not mention any rp involved in the kill itself. And, as was pointed out, they apparently rode the horse into an undead-infested area and got the monsters to kill it so that the murder command wouldn't be logged. If there was sufficient role-play, I could see mount murder happening, but killing in that manner sounds suspicious to me. Anyway, he needed someone to complain to, and I was so outraged that I made the decision to post about it. Thanks to everyone for your input.

Simplified. I'll try to convince Nelix to post everything that happened, though he seemed like he was just going to move on and forget about it He just needed someone to rant to which was meddlesome me. lol

[Gwain]

I would like to see rules put in place which mandate that any attacks on mounts should be done with the owner present (I actually thought these were in place). We can't mistakenly kill mounts because they require the murder command to accomplish this. Killing or bringing a mount to a situation where it dies without proper roleplay with the owner is poor in my opinion. However, I don't see anything wrong with looting mounts that have not been stabled in places where a stable is available or in the wilderness. That makes me a bit two-faced. I do know that codewise there are ways to make mounts unable to be stolen (My information is dated, and may be mistaken.) If your mount is resting, it cannot be mounted or engaged to move without being attacked. If you store your goods on your mount in containers worn by said mount, they cannot be stolen. Those options rely on your situation and what is ic and unic for you to do.

[Nysan]

More to the point: What do you all think about attacking mounts? Should it be allowed? What criteria would you assign to those situations?

As I already mentioned in this thread... that is someone's stuff. We have detailed rules regarding looting a player's corpse and steal skill. Mounts should be treated higher than just another mob to grind for free stuff. Its one of those moments where 'real life consequences' should take a back seat to the fact that we are not a hardcore group, when it comes to taking other folks' stuff.

That said, I don't want some new rule giving every bumpkin (good term from me) a golden ticket to leave their packhorse anywhere without fear of some kind of reaction. Double-edged sword, really.

Edit: Sorry if any of my prior posts hinted at my soapbox. Its right there and it feels so good on my feet. So tempting...

[Isaldur]

More to the point: What do you all think about attacking mounts? Should it be allowed? What criteria would you assign to those situations?

I'd like to see a trigger in combat where if you are mounted and fighting, and your mount gets killed, you have a random chance to be crushed under it (Limb damage?), plummet to death (if flying), tossed off into a tree, etc.

After all, easiest way to get to the charging knight is to de-horse him(her) or just plain de-horse.

As for actual attacking mounts? Perhaps something should be introduced where mounts shy away from letting unfamiliar people mount them, or harder skill checks to do so where failure could mean a shod-hoof to your skull? Killing of a mount should be logged in case it was done without roleplay, so the staff can at least do follow up investigations when a complaint is filed. Would also go hand in hand with finding out if someone avoided using common sense, like stealing a horse in a temple stable and riding it out etc when the Temple staff/guards would certainly do something.

[Mele]

Maybe I'm a little harsh, but I don't agree with the perspectives about mounts since Harroghty asking:

More to the point: What do you all think about attacking mounts? Should it be allowed? What criteria would you assign to those situations?

Don't leave your mount alone! If you leave your mount alone not only does it mean it's free for PC's it's free for NPC's - just because they're not acting doesn't mean they're there, doesn't mean your fuzzy dude would be safe.

Further, if you're going to care so little about your fuzzy friend, why are you trusting him with your items!


*This is just the opinion of a player not the word of the staff for this post thank you.

[Selveem]

Agree with Mele.

If someone really wants it dead, where there's a will, there's a way. I think the only thing to safeguard it is to actually stable.

Sure, you can say 'you have to use murder on pets, people, and other minions' but I'm a rational thinker and if someone's willing to break the rules, they're not going to pay attention to you trying to tell them they 'have to' do something; especially when they know that is logged. So, instead, Wyverns will be used, AoEs, zaps, brandishes, normal aggro mobs, direct hit spells, kick, punch, bash, gouge, dirt kick, etc.

As a side note, I really do feel that all these helpfiles on player conduct need to be condensed. _I_ don't even know where certain things are when I go to reference rules; it's annoying and time consuming. I certainly wouldn't expect a new player to be able to find every obscure rule of FK.

[Harroghty]

The staff is already working on condensing and stream-lining the help files on player killing. Hence the question.

[Selveem]

I'd meant rules in general; sorry for not being clear.

[Mask]

For what it's worth, the pet was killed by an aggressive NPC, so was clearly left where such beasts roamed. For the occasion when it was deemed 'stolen', it is more likely that it automatically fled from it's hostile attacker.