Forgotten Kingdoms Forums

So obviously I've had a character die recently as all my recent posts are death related. Anyway!

Being dead is absolutely horrible. And certain conditions make it even more unbearable. I know being dead isn't supposed to be fun, but still. As an older player that has been stuck there, there have been times when I have even considered the reincarnation option.

I've seen this mentioned a few times in various places, but sitting around today I thought it would add a bit of life into the dead situation. A haunt command. When you are dead, you can choose the person of your choice to haunt once per hour for five minutes at a time. You would appear before them as a ghost and be able to either pester haunt them or plea for help. When your five minutes is up you go back to the realms of the dead.

I would say that in order to haunt a specific person it would have to be a greeted person. So you could 'haunt Enig' and then be transported to Enig. If you don't know anyone online or are just a newer player, you could just type 'haunt' alone and be taken to your hometown and hope to catch someone there.

You wouldn't be able to do anything but floating, says, and smotes. I think if you limit the amount of time you can haunt and the number of times you could do it, it could add a lot to being dead. And we might be able to add it as a racial ability to our ghosts.

Times when you don't know anyone online, it could be a real help for your PC to just be able to go to their hometown. It would help with finding people to help us. Or if you just feel like it, it could be a fun RP for a dead Beshaban to haunt a Tymoran for a limited time.

I don't really see it being abused if you limit it. Because who really would want to stick around in the realms for extra hours just for another five minutes of haunting? And why would you want to if you can't really do anything other than moving and saying things? You couldn't lose a PK to someone and then come back and kill them as a ghost. Though the PK situation might be another fun one as rarely as it happens. Someone kills you.. scare them to death before you come back.

I don't see any drawbacks, but I am the one sitting in the realms of the dead wanting to haunt someone. It wouldn't take anything away from needing to find a PC to raise you, or make any priests or any other class obsolete. Speak with dead would still be useful for whenever the haunt ends, or before someone has had the chance to use a haunt.

Only two drawbacks I can see:

1: If there is a crash while you're 'haunting' someone and are not returned to the realms of the dead afterwards. This might get you stuck and, depending how raising code is configured, might stop you from being raised. A solution might be that as the character haunting has some form of 'affect' on them that, as its potency moves to 0, you're whisked back to Kelem-land.

2: What if you're somehow killed in ghost form? What happens to you? Does the MUD crash? Is there now a ghost version of you?

It's a good idea. I like it a lot. I just think it'll take some significant brainstorming on possible issues that might arise if it were introduced.

This is an absolutly nice idea

I can't see any drawback either and I think our coding team are surely capable of such feat without any lasting flaws.

It can only add to roleplay

Brar

Heya, Selv, I think Mask can probably handle figuring out whether or not it's feasible in code; bringing up stuff like, 'If it's not properly tested it might end up with a bug.' isn't really helpful, because you can say that same thing about every single command, feature, area, mob, and script in the game.

Edited to clarify: Not to say that I think objections or possible problems shouldn't be discussed, I just don't think we need to worry about the nitty-gritty of how a possible feature will be coded before it's even decided whether or not we want to seriously consider maybe implementing it.

Aveline wrote:Or if you just feel like it, it could be a fun RP for a dead Beshaban to haunt a Tymoran for a limited time.

Turn Ghost, please and thank you. Choose your haunts carefully!

Let me throw out a couple of thoughts to help keep things rolling.

Should haunting ghosts be given any special powers? For example, invisibility at will? Grandmaster Sneak? Flight? It's hard to haunt someone when they can see and hear you when you "walk" in, after all. An echo could still be given when a ghost does enter the room ("You feel a sudden chill" or "You feel as though you are being watched" for example) to prevent this from being used to just spy on people while still not giving the haunted person the identity and nature of their visitor.

Special abilities have the possibility of being abused, of course, like using your ghostly form to scout areas that you shouldn't be in. Perhaps they could be restricted to person-specific haunts? Different rules for different uses of the ability?

For example, if you use "haunt enig," you could be granted invisibility and perfect sneak before you manifest in the room, but then you're stuck with him wherever he goes (it defeats the purpose of suggesting flight, I know). No wandering off right afterwards! But if you just use "haunt," you're stuck being completely visible and walking on foot as you wander about as a lost soul.

This idea could be a lot of fun. Plus, it could come in really handy, not only for finding help when you're a total stranger but also if people are trying to rescue you but keep getting lost ("The door on your left. No, your OTHER left!"). If haunting should turn into harassment (ICly, of course; OOC harassment is a whole 'nother story), then that could give clerics something fun to do on those slow days. "Who you gonna call?"

I have some more suggestions, but they're more mechanical in nature (which, apparently, means I should hold off on them for now). This is a good idea with some definite promise.

Zasheir wrote:Special abilities have the possibility of being abused, of course, like using your ghostly form to scout areas that you shouldn't be in.

That shouldn't be an issue. Technically, a ghost is still a PC which still has most of their original stats. Temples check against a PCs faith and if they don't match, you don't get in whether you are a ghost or not. Other areas that restrict entrance are likely to have similar guards that are unlikely to be defeated by this. Furthermore, five minutes is not really enough time to explore an area either since you have to consider that you are either teleporting to a PC you don't know the location of or a hometown so you still have to take into consideration the time it would take to reach a location.

We could sit here and come up with all sorts of potential, obscure abuses for everything, but at the end of the day that's what the code council is for. Besides, is there really much you can harm in five minutes with a PC that can only move, speak and smote?

I'm all for the idea. It's simple and adds to the game while detracting really nothing.

Enig wrote:Heya, Selv, I think Mask can probably handle figuring out whether or not it's feasible in code; bringing up stuff like, 'If it's not properly tested it might end up with a bug.' isn't really helpful, because you can say that same thing about every single command, feature, area, mob, and script in the game.

Enig, you know I love you but I don't need to be put in my place. As someone who did change validations for a living, I can assure you a single person WILL make mistakes. I respect Mask a great deal, so it's not that I believe he's inept, either. The change deviates from the existing code quite a bit. As I said, I believe it's a very good idea and raising concerns shouldn't be looked at as attempting to down an idea. There was no motive behind my wording aside from the stability of the game.

Selveem wrote: I can assure you a single person WILL make mistakes.

Pretty sure there is more than one person on the coding team mate.

The idea, I think it's pretty good, could create some rp situation in corpse collection too.

Briek wrote:

Selveem wrote: I can assure you a single person WILL make mistakes.

Pretty sure there is more than one person on the coding team mate.

The idea, I think it's pretty good, could create some rp situation in corpse collection too.

Nah, Mask's alter ego is superman and he does it all alone

Another thinking about the idea would be that only people with "Speak with dead" or "True sight" would be able to see the ghosts

Ghosts should only haunt where they died or cemeteries/temples in their hometowns. Priests should be able to exercise problematic ghosts. Ghosts should be mute or speak in disjointed bursts. They should have the marks of their end on them and the wounds. Being a ghost should be temporary, time if you will to keep players from being long-term ghosts. Ghost could be limited to night hours on the mud and confined to the spirit world during the day. Salt and iron should destroy them. In practice, spirits from the fugue can only be seen while under the influence of the speak to dead spell, this could work for detecting ghosts.

quote="Selveem"]
2: What if you're somehow killed in ghost form? What happens to you? Does the MUD crash? Is there now a ghost version of you?[/quote]

I would really like to see it so that the haunt affect also gave you some sort of sanctuary affect to where you couldn't be attacked, and you shouldn't be able to attack or join in on any other fight if you just happen to pop in on one. I don't know what it takes to code such things, but if you pop in on your friend in the midst of a dragon attack, what I would like to see is that you would just have to sit there and watch while they got crispied. Then when your time was up you could visit with them then. Someone to keep you company!

Other people have mentioned being able to kill or get rid of ghosts. I really wouldn't want the haunt affect to last a long time, and within the time frame I have in mind I really don't see how there would be time to get a PK going to get rid of a ghost. Even Die Hard undead killing people would take the time to listen to a ghost to help it get peace if it was trying to contact them. I know there are always exceptions but I really do not think it should come up that people try to kill you as a ghost. If you are bothering/pestering someone then I would think that maybe there could be an option to banish a ghost, but really if they are only there for five minutes at a time, they will be gone before they've bothered anyone too much.

Part of the reason I suggested this was the difficulty of finding someone to help when you are dead. Because of this I really don't want it to be limited in who can see the ghost. Especially with our lower player numbers right now. There might only be four players on and then IF you happen to be near one of those characters you would have to hope one of them is a priest. If we had a larger player base, I would be ALL for that. I think it is a fun idea and gives more use to priests/wizards, but for now I think it would suck to waste your one haunt and no one even know you are there.

I do like the suggestion about only being able to use the ability on night mud hours.

I think though if ghosts aren't going to be able to take any real actions other than talking, then they really shouldn't be killed. I suppose priests could have the ability to banish them if they are just being a real pain in the behind, but again I really don't see the point if they aren't going to be about long. I just don't see too many people wasting their chance to get some help to annoy someone. But it could happen!

Unintentionally, the code is in place to return a ghost wandering the world to the Fugue. A few years ago, I was part of an imm run rp where everyone got killed and was brought back. One of us was unknowingly transfered in. It was not mentioned by the player until after the imms had logged off, so we were left with a ghost, that no one could see without speak to dead in play, or kill. In the end, turning them returned them to the realm of death so that they could be raised. This established the following:

-You don't need to be in the realm of death to be raised when you are race ghost. (Not confirmed)
-You can't move when you are a ghost
-No one can see you without magical assistance
-You can be killed with a single turning

So the idea is half there, coding wise, it could be implemented without reinventing the mud, but for some refinement.

Aveline wrote: Part of the reason I suggested this was the difficulty of finding someone to help when you are dead. Because of this I really don't want it to be limited in who can see the ghost. Especially with our lower player numbers right now. There might only be four players on and then IF you happen to be near one of those characters you would have to hope one of them is a priest. If we had a larger player base, I would be ALL for that. I think it is a fun idea and gives more use to priests/wizards, but for now I think it would suck to waste your one haunt and no one even know you are there.

I think seeing the ghost should be left to spells, special abilities, but you can still hear, feel, whatever it.
It is just that you don't see it with your eyes

Or even better, temporal invisibilty, like you see, you don't see, you see, you don't see, ect

A few fun facts about Ghosts:

• It's not said whether the wounds they received in death would show as their ethereal form (I highly doubt it would, actually).
• A Ghost cannot be killed by normal means; it has rejuvenation as a supernatural ability that would allow it to return to the place it is haunting within 2 to 8 days. Even if you wanted to, a Ghost is not something that should be taken lightly. Not only are they difficult to be rid of via spells, prayers, and weapons, they possess a variety of other special abilities that ensure they can jack you up (such as possessing your body and having your body meet an untimely end).
• A Ghost cannot be gotten rid of by Banishment nor Dismissal on the Prime Material Plane; they are considered native to both the Prime Material and Ethereal Plane.
• Because they are ethereal, they are invisible and cannot be smelled (but we don't have any scent abilities for PCs).
• Though they may not be heard by natural means, Ghosts possess telepathy as a supernatural ability allowing them to talk directly into the mind of their intended target(s).
• They can't be seen without the aid of 'see invisible' or 'true sight' spells/prayers. However, they do have a supernatural ability called "manifestation" that does allow them to be seen as an incorporeal form (though they still can't "speak" save for telepathy). They may manifest as long and often as they wish.
• Night time shouldn't be required. A Ghost can even be seen during the day while it is haunting (manifested). There is no 'witching hour' requirement.
• Ghosts are just as intelligent, wise, and charismatic as they were before they died. They also retain their dexterity bonus.
• There is no requirement that a Ghost haunt only where it dies or its body's current resting place. A Ghost might even seek the sympathy of a stranger if necessary (we've already got an in-game example of it, too!).
• Contrary to popular TV shows (*cough, Supernatural, *cough*) and many other superstitions, salt nor iron have any affect on Ghosts in D&D.

That being said, I do agree we should deviate slightly and put a limit as to how long/often a PC Ghost can manifest. I also agree with Aveline that a Ghost really shouldn't attack or be attacked; even by a PC. Even if a PC did, there's a very high likelihood that they'd get their butts handed to them for attempting it.

It would be nice if you 'haunted' a single person and stuck with them for a while. As Aveline said, sometimes it is difficult to explain via tells where you died.

It's facts about DnD ghost template and those are nice...

However for this feature, I would rather say that we forget about these and just do it how we feel for the fun of it.

PC won't turn ghost in a term of template, just ghost in a term of ghostbuster and casper (for the younger), nothing to do with abilities or skills or anything. Only roleplay possibilities and nothing nor code nor fighting related.

That's how I see it

And I prefer the night only, it is far more fun

Brar

There are already Ghosts on FK that manifest during the daytime. Why would PCs be limited to night time only?

I mean, I'm not saying you have to use it during the day. If you think the night time is more fun, you can restrict yourself to night time usage only.

The facts are I listed are so that there's an understanding as to what a Ghost is and isn't capable of (and is/isn't affected by). Just because a PC Ghost wouldn't be granted the ability to possess others or attack them doesn't mean that Ghosts don't have that ability or should be taken lightly.

Either way, I agree that PC Ghosts should be a bit more restricted than NPC Ghosts (aside from night time only manifestations). Otherwise, it'd get very old quickly.

I think that dnd is different than fk on many levels. Though I can appreciate a strong respect for core rules, we should take into account that it should not be a fun long term experience to be a ghost. That the main purpose of being a ghost is finding something temporarily to do with your time that does not involve sitting in a room alone for hours on end. So its not about trying to be true to core rules, but rather fixing a concept that is very old and unattended with the intention of not creating a race of ghosts to populate the mud, but allowing ghosts the chance to go out and get raised or at least have a social life beyond amulets for a few times a week or month.

By the way, salt and iron though popularized in recent media goes back a long way beyond television serials.

I am not sure if there is an indirect implication of using the "haunt" command to contact people you do not know to get them to raise you within this forum, but I will happily suggest it if there isn't. I believe that would be a good solution to the problem of younger players (or newer characters) not knowing anyone and then dying. It doesn't make sense to randomly contact someone with the amulet and say, "You don't know me, and I don't know you, but I'm dead, can you help me?" A few people have had to stumble a bit through this with Zorinar, who was the only able person to assist them. This haunting command would work nicely to RP contacting someone and let them know that you died untimely and your body is in such and such a location.

Sometimes people just have to leave and can't wait for an hour for someone to show up.... and what if there is a reboot after you quit? The corpse and its belongings are deleted if I am not mistaken. This haunt command would fill that gap nicely I think.

Z

Just a quick bit of claification before I go to sleep. Pretty sure that player corpses survive copyover/crashes. That is all. Night night!

Oh I love this idea!
In my opinion seeking help like this is a lot better than using tells. No matter whether or not you know the person you're asking for help. I also agree that you should know the person if you want to haunt a specific person.
As for being visible.. I kind of like the idea of disappearing. So let's say you haunt someone. You appear in the same room, but only visible to those with spells. But you are able to make yourself visible for a very short time.. visible for everyone. But since you're a "young" ghost and have no experience in the whole ghost thing, you'd disappear again after a few moments. Like a flash. You just don't know how to stay visible for longer. You'd still be able to talk after this but you'd be invisible.

I hope this makes sense to anyone, I like the idea so much that I got excited and excitement can confuse my sentences