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Briek mentioned charisma being some sort of dump stat for paladins, which is true. I remember playing neverwinter nights and having a paladin with insanely high charisma (29 or so), because of:
1. Charisma modifier is added to saving throws
2. Charisma modifier is added to damage bonus and/or to hit bonus (can't remember if it's both).

Since paladins are supposed to be some super hero of deities, I'm thinking if this could be implemented for paladins. What do you paladins think of this?

1 is already implemented

2 I don't have an idea where you get that from.... care to elaborate ?

I think it's a feat called divine might that allows paladins/clerics to convert charisma bonus into damage bonus.

Like Brar said, I believe Divine Grace (Charisma bonus to all saves) is already implemented.

Llanthyr wrote:I think it's a feat called divine might that allows paladins/clerics to convert charisma bonus into damage bonus.

There is a feat called Divine Might in Complete Warrior, but you're overstating it a bit. It's a Divine feat, meaning it converts uses of Turn Undead to power other abilities. Copyright laws prevent me from copying and pasting the feat's description, but, in short, it lets you burn a Turn attempt to get charisma to damage for one round.

I've never gotten the impression that charisma was a dump stat for paladins. Looking at the D&D paladin (I'm not so sure about FK's), charisma governs... *Deep breath* ...Their Smite Evil accuracy, Divine Grace, Lay On Hands, Turn Undead, and charisma-based skills (which paladins are known to favor). I mean, I guess if you hate your class features, even one as amazing as Divine Grace, then you could dump it, but... Why? The only people that need charisma more than paladins are bards, sorcerers, and the like.

On a side note, I can't tell if the Divine feats would be over or underpowered in FK. Turn Undead works completely differently in FK (Only affects one target, damages instead of turning/destroying, seems to fail often even against very weak undead), but something that lasts a round is nearly worthless in the fast-paced combat of FK (though not all Divine feats last just one round). Maybe that would be worth discussing?

On another side note, I recall D&D having a feat that lets you use your wisdom modifier instead of charisma for your various class features, but the name of that one escapes me. That feat would let you get away with a low-charisma paladin with very few repercussions.

To be honest, I was thinking back in time a little bit. I totally forgot some of the new things Mask put in.

That said I now say it isn't a dump stat, but it would be nice to have charisma count for a little more.
I was generally just referring to the fact that because paladins must have a high charisma, it would work
well for that class in a teaching aspect if that new idea came into force.

Keltorn wrote:mite Evil accuracy, Divine Grace, Lay On Hands, Turn Undead, and charisma-based skills (which paladins are known to favor). I mean, I guess if you hate your class features, even one as amazing as Divine Grace, then you could dump it, but... Why? The only people that need charisma more than paladins are bards, sorcerers, and the like.

It doesn't affect layonhands but for the most part you are right. and smite, doesn't affect smite

The term dump stat doesn't really apply, charisma is a class feature they must have it and that's fine, who's ever heard of an uncharismatic holy hero?

I've read it up, it allows you to use your turn undead attempt as bonus damage for the equal number of rounds to your charisma bonus. Granted, 4 rounds (18 cha, +4) isn't a lot either. That is why I am suggesting either:
1. Implementing it as a general bonus that paladins get as well
or
2. Implementing #1. as a feat.

I would favour 1, considering the fact that paladins don't get that many feat points!

Regardless of how you put it, charisma has been, and is basically a dump stat. Better to suggest ideas that will improve (albeit gradually) the use of charisma, rather than to set limits to various things to encourage people to pump stat points into charisma.

Llanthyr wrote:Regardless of how you put it, charisma has been, and is basically a dump stat. Better to suggest ideas that will improve (albeit gradually) the use of charisma, rather than to set limits to various things to encourage people to pump stat points into charisma.

We have made loads of improvement into bringing paladins up to the D&D standard, not saying your ideas aren't worthwhile of course but I just wanted to point out that I hadn't taken into account recent changes when I posted that.

On the subject of charisma, is there any way it could be better utilized for other classes aswell?

Briek wrote:It doesn't affect layonhands but for the most part you are right. and smite, doesn't affect smite

Well, actually...

D&D wrote:Lay on Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level x her Charisma bonus. A paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn't have to use it all at once. Using lay on hands is a standard action.

And...

D&D wrote:Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.

Like I said...

Keltorn wrote:Looking at the D&D paladin (I'm not so sure about FK's)...

Does FK not take these things into account? Now that we can see the numbers, it is easy enough to tell if Divine Grace is working, but I feel it would be really hard to tell with Smite Evil whether your charisma goes into attack or not.

As for Lay On Hands, I get the feeling it works differently in FK (Can't heal a specified amount, no daily HP limit). Just looking at the helpfile, I get the impression that it works by having so many uses per day and heals so much each time it is used. Charisma could easily be tacked onto the amount of HP being healed, assuming it isn't already. Are my assumtions correct on how Lay On Hands works?

Briek wrote:On the subject of charisma, is there any way it could be better utilized for other classes aswell?

Besides some skills, quest requirements, and backing up a nice description? Hmm... The Leadership feat, maybe?

Is there any reason charisma needs to be vital to other classes? Different classes need different abilities, and some of them really don't need a good charisma score to get by. It's just not a part of the roleplay for that class, like intelligence or dexterity for paladins or clerics, wisdom or strength for wizards or bards, etc. They can get it if they want, but if a paladin really wants a lightning fast dexterity score to benefit him, he should probably look into a different line of work.

Keltorn wrote:Well, actually...
D&D wrote:
Lay on Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level x her Charisma bonus. A paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn't have to use it all at once. Using lay on hands is a standard action.

Oh, yeah sorry I was just looking at the abilities listed next to the skill, which will relate to the success of the check on these skills.

Keltorn wrote:Does FK not take these things into account? Now that we can see the numbers, it is easy enough to tell if Divine Grace is working, but I feel it would be really hard to tell with Smite Evil whether your charisma goes into attack or not.

As for Lay On Hands, I get the feeling it works differently in FK (Can't heal a specified amount, no daily HP limit). Just looking at the helpfile, I get the impression that it works by having so many uses per day and heals so much each time it is used. Charisma could easily be tacked onto the amount of HP being healed, assuming it isn't already. Are my assumtions correct on how Lay On Hands works?

it works that way yeah, I was assured it was working properly when I asked before and I have no reason to doubt that but it would be nice to see it on the score sheet

In FK, you have x uses of Lay On Hands per day. You heal the SRD amount per day, your level times your CHA modifier, divided up equally into your x uses. So, a level 21 paladin with an 18 CHA (+4) heals (up to, assuming skill check succeeds) 84 hp per day, 21 points per each of their 4 layonhands.

Sorry, don't have time to test others! Smite is not obvious to me, it shows a WIS bonus, not CHA?

Raona wrote:Sorry, don't have time to test others! Smite is not obvious to me, it shows a WIS bonus, not CHA?

that's where I got confused I think

Wowsa - Smite doesn't seem to use any stat bonus in its damage determination, nor paladin level - rather it deals out damage equal to your skill with the ability. That's pretty far removed from D20, which would have you add your paladin level worth of damage to a normal attack roll, boosting your to-hit roll for that same attack by your CHA bonus. We have it as a touch attack that deals damage equal to your smite expertise. Still, canon doesn't have skill levels, so this may be a fair compromise. Thoughts?

Divine Grace is working as per D20.

Raona wrote:Wowsa - Smite doesn't seem to use any stat bonus in its damage determination, nor paladin level - rather it deals out damage equal to your skill with the ability. That's pretty far removed from D20, which would have you add your paladin level worth of damage to a normal attack roll, boosting your to-hit roll for that same attack by your CHA bonus. We have it as a touch attack that deals damage equal to your smite expertise. Still, canon doesn't have skill levels, so this may be a fair compromise. Thoughts?

I move that we change it to what is canon, the skill level defining by how much your hit roll is affected by your CHA bonus.

Raona wrote:Wowsa - Smite doesn't seem to use any stat bonus in its damage determination, nor paladin level - rather it deals out damage equal to your skill with the ability. That's pretty far removed from D20, which would have you add your paladin level worth of damage to a normal attack roll, boosting your to-hit roll for that same attack by your CHA bonus. We have it as a touch attack that deals damage equal to your smite expertise. Still, canon doesn't have skill levels, so this may be a fair compromise. Thoughts?

Well, the only way to get it truly canon would be to either get rid of the skill level for Smite completely or make the skill level irrelevant to its usefulness. Briek suggested a good compromise, but I vote going the other way with it. Have smite add your charisma modifier to your attack roll (unaffected by skill level), then use paladin level (maybe after converting the FK level to its D&D equivalent?) and skill level to determine the bonus to damage. I'm actually kind of at a loss to explain my thinking there, but that way feels more right to me.