Corpse Retrieval in the Underdark

[Zorinar]

Off topic but Dapher's post brought this to mind.

If everything is going to be auto agro in the Unerdark, do we have any kind of means for getting corpses out of the underdark if someone or a group dies in there?

Those strong enough to go down there and end up dying are likely the only ones that could have done a rescue anyway.

I would suggest some kind of coded means for getting corpses (and dropped equipment) back to players that have died in un-rescue-able areas.

[Harroghty]

Please be careful not to derail one thread with a non-sequitur.

I disagree with this because the Underdark is an inherently risky place (hence the brief message you see before you enter it for the first time); there should be some element of danger or what's the point?

[Brar]

I don't agree with that at all.
The UDW is far from dangerous if you are careful, like any other area in fact.

Now, certains groups of mobs should be aggressive against others.

If you don't scout ahead then it's your fault you die and I don't see why you should be getting back your corpse easily...

I'm rather strict with this and my tone may sounds bad, but as one of the one who wanders the most down there, I don't see any reason for making things more easy than it is already.
Now, there should be some consistency, if you invade a dracolich or archdevils domain, don't except to go unattacked...same for guarded tunnels and such....
If you don't think, do not excpet to have things easy, and if you think, there is nothing dangerous down there. Not more dangerous than the surface anyway.

[Selveem]

While I don't feel there should be some form of "coded aide" for corpse retrievals, there are a few points I want to make:

The UDW is far from dangerous if you are careful, like any other area in fact.

If you don't scout ahead then it's your fault you die and I don't see why you should be getting back your corpse easily...

History claims this isn't true. I've seen a very veteran group of players with powerful characters get slaughtered down there. They weren't players known for impatience, either. From my personal experience: when the area first opened our overpowered three-man (which included the original creator of the area [he wasn't leading]) was REALLY careful and we still almost died due to a "trap" that couldn't be seen before entering the room.

Perhaps if you mapped out the area entirely in a previous instance you have a far greater chance, but to say it's "far from dangerous" is a misleading claim. I don't want other players going down there thinking, "well if we're careful, Brar said it's a cakewalk!"

Those strong enough to go down there and end up dying are likely the only ones that could have done a rescue anyway.

That really is true story. The few players who regularly do corpse retrievals in dangerous areas are REALLY SoL if they're killed in dangerous areas. If they die there, they are at the mercy of the staff or the other few remaining powerful people who don't regularly log in/do corpse retrievals.

[Gwain]

Caravan routes to Skullport or other points of interests for a steep fee could aid in corpse recovery, if you can see them along your route, you could request a stop, exit the caravan and retrieve them.

[Zorinar]

I wasn't trying to discuss the inherent dangers of a place at all. I wasn't, in any uncertain terms, trying to suggest that something be made easier or harder in areas. What I am talking about is RL consideration.

Let me simplify my point as it seems to have gotten lost with focus on its letter rather than on its spirit.

Let us, then, suppose you die to a Dracolich in the UD or with Feebov or anywhere. Furthermore, let it be supposed that you are not using OOC means to ask an IMM for help, but you ask some powerful players for help that also all die while trying to rescue you. Now what we have, is a situation where the powerful people of the game are all out of it, with no means at all for a rescue to happen. This could be in the UM, the UD, it could be with Feebov, it could be in the Forelorn hills, or anywhere that is high level. I have seen the groups of very powerful players get slaughtered all at once. The UD is no exception at all. Blaming the player for dying somewhere is ludicrous beyond measure and also insulting to one's intelligence. You can die anywhere, careful or not. Especially if there are wandering mobs.

When you are one of the corpse retrieval players, (That means, a player strong enough to go get the other strong players that died [and you know you are one when most of your IM is filled with "Help me I'm dead" messages while you were away]) and you die.. what do you do? Let us then further assume that you live in RL and the game is not your only means of spending your time and you need to leave. There is no one strong enough to help you (and that Jarris is away on deployment). You are, as Selveem pointed out, severely and utterly SOL. There needs to be a solution for this dilemma. I propose that the supplication resurrect be looked at as a possible solution.


So, I will hope that you excuse MY hard and intense tone as I have been there, done that, and speak from personal experience and opinion about this and I firmly believe that this is an issue that should not be brushed under the rug with talk of "just be careful" or "Well its supposed to be dangerous."

People have had to spend hours upon hours in death and luckily for them, they didn't have some super pressing issues to deal with. That does not increase player retention nor satisfaction.

[Harroghty]

My response was not a dismissal of your idea. I did not feel the need to expand on it because I do not believe that there is really a problem with this right now.

The only people who languish in the Underdark are those high-level PCs with veteran players who go down there solo and reap the reward of their poor judgment, and even then they usually only wait until a friend of theirs logs in to rescue them. If a large group were to be slaughtered then there would likely be immortal involvement to coordinate their rescue (as there often is in such cases).

[Brar]

People have had to spend hours upon hours in death and luckily for them, they didn't have some super pressing issues to deal with. That does not increase player retention nor satisfaction.

One good thing about FK is that you don't need to be online to be rescued.

It happened many times that I found a corpse in the UDW or Feebov or UD and just brought it back to the conservatory....

I totally agree with Harroghty however, and I solo the UDW a lot myself for a specific purpose.

[Mele]

I agree with Harroghty. This area is stated to be hard upon entry and when announced to be in. Part of the dangers of these kind of areas is that you can die without an easy way to retrieve your corpse. That's part of the allure of what makes it feel so hard and so scary. Offering some sort of corpse retrieval not only removes this fact, but in my opinion is not a horribly IC thing to have a random xyz willing to go into this dangerous place for some armour on a dead body.

New Area
An underdark wilderness has been added to link up various Underdark areas - be warned - it is *extremely* dangerous down there - big groups and high level characters strongly recommended!

This was Mask's announcement about the area coming in. Now - you may not know this, but for Mask to say this about an area is a pretty big thing! He's not quick to call something hard at all and he said *extremely*!



I'll be very open and honest here and admit the title of this thread immediately raised a preposterous flag to me. It's been very clear that this area is hard. As experienced, high level players going in here you're well aware you might just die. You're aware how to avoid it also (recall, potions of recall, supplicate recall if in the heat of a moment. Otherwise, looking and avoiding). But most importantly -- if you die all you're losing is your items, there are means to return a life without a body. At the end of the day, your items should not be important enough for something like this to be implemented when all of the warnings and knowledge have been very freely given.

[Lathander]

Agree with Harroghty

[Selveem]

I'll be very open and honest here and admit the title of this thread immediately raised a preposterous flag to me.

I must admit, when I first read the thread I thought the exact same. I understand the merit of the idea, but my instant reaction was: "nah, this is more trouble than it is worth to the game." Then, I started thinking about it a while longer and maybe it does have its benefits to the population as a whole.

One of the most important things in D&D with regards to balance is "risk vs reward." Now, I'm not going to claim I've been through UDW a lot, but I will say what I've encountered there is REALLY dangerous and I encountered no substantial reward IC ("substantial rewards" do not reflect sentimental value of the RP OOCly or "I learned a new way around Waterdeep" - those aren't "rewards" worth risking your life over ICly). This is actually rather commonplace for high level areas that I've seen.

If the reward isn't significant, why would your character risk their life and all their belongings? Why would a DM want to dismiss their players' contributions in such a manner? If there is no substantial reward for a character to go to such a place or return to such a place after they've completed their quest and obtained a great reward, what is their drive to go or return? Thus, I have changed my opinion and now believe the idea has value.

But most importantly -- if you die all you're losing is your items, there are means to return a life without a body.

I know this is off topic, but for some people items are not so easily replaced. For instance, if I died on a Centaur or Wemic, the chances of me getting replacement "large magical <insert weapon names here>" that I've spent feats and stats to specialize in become wasted.

Quests are finite; the chances of getting large items are very, very rare (especially now, it seems). Finding a replace to the item you lost is slim to (more realistically) zero chance.

[Nysan]

Solo play has high rewards and steep risks, such is the road some of us wander. I agree we do not see a need to change the way we handle such deaths, especially since these areas are clearly marked as 'enter at own risk' (like Mask's note on the UD addition). I say that as a player that had characters lose every item to their name after a solo-death. Nothing brings home the "at own risk"/"I told you so!" message better than having nothing more than a pair of brown leggings after returning to life.

On the other hand, when a group falls it is a scary time, but every time I have been involved in such an event we had imm involvement that helped, but didn't hand-hold, folks to a somewhat positive outcome. I like to believe we have enough imm presence around that group deaths do not occur frequently without oversight, but maybe I'm wrong?

That said, some items are worth dying for. It will be dark day indeed if Gilain ever lost his hat.

[Brar]

One of the most important things in D&D with regards to balance is "risk vs reward." Now, I'm not going to claim I've been through UDW a lot, but I will say what I've encountered there is REALLY dangerous and I encountered no substantial reward IC ("substantial rewards" do not reflect sentimental value of the RP OOCly or "I learned a new way around Waterdeep" - those aren't "rewards" worth risking your life over ICly). This is actually rather commonplace for high level areas that I've seen.

You obviously haven't wander a lot there then... The two points you made are truly nonsensical if you actually explore the area.

I'm not going to spoil out what is down there, but honestly, the rewards are there (In term of quests, loot, and knowledge) and yes, there are dangerous things, but nothing impossible to overcome or kill if the fight is well prepared, and you don't need a group of twenty to kill anything down there, less much organize a rescue.

Every time I died was because of being in a rush and not looking, listening properly before moving, except that, if you are careful of the patrols and where you step, you're pretty much safe. There is always the improbable happening (as in 2 adult purple popping in the room next to you at the same time) but it is the rare occurence and what gives the sense of danger to it.

To resume, the chance you actually loose an item when dying is non existant, whereever you die in the game as a group.

And if you die anywhere high level solo, then bad for you. You should have taken a group with you so deal with it and move yourself to get your things back. (That's pretty much what I did just yesterday as I died in the UDW all by myself and mounted my own rescue mission...).

Edit addendum:
Also do not forget that items are not lost on copyover anymore, only on resets which happens less than once a month.
See the piles of hundreds of manure in the UDW... and the junk that I made more than 2 weeks ago whil killing mobs that is still there. If you can't mount a rescue in 2 weeks then there is a real problem...

[Selveem]

With regards to this post of mine.. I just wanted to explain that I have found no tangible reward; I am not saying it does not exist.

Additionally, my posts are not to dissuade people from going to Underdark Wilderness area. It is dangerous (and please don't disservice it by claiming it isn't), but it is made by one of the best builders to ever grace FK. OOC rewards DO exist in this area (as well as every other area Solaghar has made) and it is worth going to just to explore it.

[Raona]

To return to Zorinar's original topic, as clarified, I have to say that I sympathize with the RL challenge. I rarely have time to play the game, certainly not in the large blocks of time needed to be rescued from an uber-dangerous place, and I don't IM...and thus death is something I am extremely skittish about for OOC reasons (not just IC). I have to literally re-arrange my day if my PC bites it and I have to try to get to their corpse. In the old days of a (roughly) 24-hour clock before everything disappeared, this could be really stressful. It's not as bad now, but still a concern.

That said, I have to point out the sad corollary: if retrieving a corpse were made easier, some would be more nonchalant toward death than they already are, availing themselves of that option regularly. I concur with others that there needs to be a very real hazard and consequence involved in exploring high-level areas, and no easy out.

However, there may be some way of squaring the circle: some reasonable middle ground that doesn't induce such OOC angst at a PC dying, but doesn't lend itself to abuse. If we want to continue to pursue this discussion, I think this is the direction it should go. (No guaranty that such a suggestion would be indulged, but I'd give it a chance.)

Honestly, I think that already exists. A fervent prayer from a dutiful follower that doesn't ask for too much, too often, will generally be met with aid. It should not be (and generally isn't) the first resort, and the aid may not be exactly what the PC would ideally want, but if an Imm sees you are trying hard but still floundering, in my experience they will lend you a helping hand. I think that's a better escape valve than any hard-coded fix, but if someone has a suggestion for a better alternative, I think it would be considered. I can't see any way around "supplicate resurrection" being unbalancing, however. Even something like a not-more-than-once-a-month-per-account version of it would fly, in my eyes. I might go with something that allowed you to "freeze" a dead PC in place until you had RL time to deal with them. THAT I have dreamed of over the years.

My main concern is that some players, new to the game, don't appreciate the power of prayer as a last resort (that is, they won't pray even when desperate, or they will do so every time they die), or how to best avail themselves of it (they need to log in that PC, even if they are powerlessly trapped in the Fugue, and wait). I'm not sure what can be done beyond what is currently in the helpfiles to remedy that, but again, I'm open to suggestions.