Forgotten Kingdoms Forums

I've been taking my time, playing my first character on this mud, a transmuter who is still only level 12 after 70 hours logged in. The vast majority of that is spent travelling and resting, which I can understand as a pacing decision. What puzzles me is how much of that travel time I can chalk up to searching for spell components. Some are terribly difficult to find, for a world that supposedly has so many wizards.

In the tabletop game, it's almost always handled as an abstraction. Your character spends some gold, gets a 'pouch of spell components', and never has to worry about it again unless the pouch is stolen or he wants to cast a spell that's particularly expensive. I understand not everyone does it that way, and I could even enjoy hunting them down if there was any other method to it other than exploring blindly and hoping for the best.

There's no rhyme or reason to what components a shop might carry, and NPCs who teach spells never seem to know where to find the components those spells require. Locate Object is singularly useless, because it always returns a list of other PCs, the Corpse Conservatory, Vorfinduil, and occasionally warehouses and storage areas.

It's bizarre and demoralizing. Learning spells is not quite as bad, though there are mysterious gaps in what is readily available (I -still- haven't found enlarge person or reduce person, the only transmutation spells of their level; the Transmuters Guild itself doesn't have anyone capable of teaching them), but using them is proving to be a nightmare. Most of the components I do know how to find, I was guided to by another PC. I suppose that is probably your intent, but it gets tiresome having to ask over and over again where to go--I'm sure it gets tiresome hearing my questions, as well.

Is this an oversight? A world design decision? I stumbled into Bostave and laughed out loud. A NPC capable of casting gate is wandering blindly through the wilderness looking for candles, rocks, saffron seeds and carrots, because apparently the dearth of grocers continues well into the highest levels.

Whether the intended obscurity of components is intended or not, I think it should be changed. Even if the spell components are not consolidated, there should be a NPC or a class of NPCs that at least provide hints of where to go to find them.

If I could put in my input on this topic...

I'm a little mixed on this issue. While I can see why components for lower level spells could be more widely available I don't think price or getting rid of the system would be viable. While buying a standard bag of components might be fine for some DMs in some campaigns, it doesn't accurately the standard D&D environment it seems the staff looks to create (or at least I think they look to create). In fact, there is a feat just for what you described (Eschew materials) which lets you skip material components under 1gp, but I think finding certain components is integral. Harpy voices and yuan-ti eyes, even though they are used in some lower level spells, should not be an easy find, nor should they be cheap. While many games do like to streamline magic use, I feel components are pretty much what can level a playing field when a fighter or rogue comes up against a mage, especially an ill-prepared one, and although not the only reason, it's one of my favorite ones.

Overall, looking at some other forums, it seems Harroghty is going to address some issues with some item stocks (Which, by the way, good on you Harroghty and anyone else addressing that issue), which should make finding some of the lower level components easier. As for finding it and asking, I know some places (not going to mention since I'm not sure what I can give away here) do have item locations posted, and all you have to do is look. As for asking other PCs, I don't see why that should be a problem at all. I know for one PC specifically, helping him find his components has sparked more RP for us than if we just met each other and talked. It kept us together, and put upon an interdependence that should be encouraged in a MUD or any RP-heavy environment.

Finally, as for travel time to get components and items needed, I feel we are all there. My main character being a fighter, just to get the weapons I wanted took me a long while (to make sure they were decent as well), I still don't have all the feats I want/need or locations for them, and I just finally got my full plate at what one could consider 10th level in PnP. This MUD, I will say happily, challenges it's players constantly to look under rocks and check everything, and doing so I have gotten plenty of deals, knowledge, and best of all, friends to go along with. I'm not going to say I know your position and understand it completely, but I will say every class in this game I've seen so far comes with it's own unique challenges, and components seems to be one of those for casters, even the experienced ones I know still have to hunt and search from time to time.

I hope this challenge though does not completely sour your experience though!

I have never played a spell-caster in any game (well, once back in 1998, I believe) and so I really do not have the resident experience to comment on this, but I will put my builder hat on in order to reply. If you see a need then either identify it to me (such as out of stock components) or, in time, develop a plan to add things in yourself. There are plenty of old areas that could use some love and plenty of gaps that have emerged over time as new spells, skills, feats, and other things have been added in.

Speaking as a someone that plays a cleric, has made, purchased, hoarded spell components I can say that the current staff over the last three years has worked incredibly hard to provide components for sale and use universally to wherever they've been desired and in fair amounts. Before that, most component sales were kept deliberately low by removing components from the wild, from npc controlled shops and making them either only craftable but with a limited supply of substance, available in a few select shops or random mobiles.

The things i feel that changed to the benefit of everyone playing this game:

1. The component system changed, and components were brought into line with srd, they last longer and were rarely used up immediately, An average component will last 5-10 times longer than it did before 2010.

2. The imms that handle building addressed player concerns and actively populated the map with hard to find components in shops or areas where they would be appropriate. The made the means to create hard to find components available to everyone and not a select few.

3. Components, difficult to find ones are being made available with the right prices and the right amount of difficulty to find, instead of being told that these components are 'supposed to be rare' we are being given opportunities to set out and find them.

This brings me to 'scope'
The game world is immense. There are shops, merchants and npcs that have been set in place since 1999 and some of them are very limited in stock options, some are only selling to organizations or individuals that have not existed in the mud for years. It takes time to change those, we've probably only scratched the surface of what needs to be changed or updated. Though, I have seen huge changes almost on a weekly basis to correct component problems as per bug reports or game suggestions, whatever is happening is happening at a fair rate, there is just lots to do.

As a player I've never looked at components the same way as tabletop would. I tend to base component gathering off of the novels surrounding the world of Forgotten Kingdoms and Dragonlance, meaning a wizard would purchase components or gather them and then use them and repeat. The difference here is that its quite mainstream since most places make money off of components and they're not that secret.

As it goes I am pleased with the changes to the current system and I am grateful for the efforts undertaken to improve the previous component availability. Its just important to remember its an ongoing process.

In response to Alexan...

Okay, I can agree that a yuan-ti eye shouldn't be all that easy to find. The question becomes, "why change the material component to a yuan-ti eye?" It's been a long, long time since I've looked at AD&D, but I know that third edition's material component is an eyelash in gum arabic. That's considerably less obnoxious to track down. The philosophies of how to employ Eschew Materials vary (and it's an old argument), so I'll let the point drop in your favor noting only that this feat isn't in the MUD. And as for other feats, I'm in the same boat. I've only spent one of my three feats so far, and that on Quick Draw. The spread of what's available is strange. I've found multiple teachers for Persistent Spell, but none for Extend Spell, which was its prerequisite in third edition (not to mention more widely applicable and useful).

And as for the challenge the mud presents to its classes, it would be one thing if the exploring and roleplay were motivated by a sense of adventure, or a provided motivation, or simply a desire for treasures. Instead it feels like maintenance. Perhaps it is simply a personal opinion, but you shouldn't have to work so hard for a class feature. Right now the only reason I have to meet new people is for help with my shopping list. Worse than being lame, it's indistinguishable from the needs of any other young wizard, which makes it hard to get a sense of the character's personality and motivation. Ceir isn't a protagonist or even an incidental cameo, he's just another quest NPC (moreover, an incompetent one).

In response to Harroghty, I'll simply say thank you once again. You're remarkably quick with the fixes, and I'll make sure to submit reports as frequently and precisely as possible. I'm an old hand at programming, but I've never worked with an existing mud before. All the same, I doubt it's terribly difficult to pick up. If you'd let met put together a dungeon full of the things I wish I had in the first ten levels, I'd be happy to do so.

And in response to Gwain, I can only restate that my own context of experience is that of an entirely new player. I've played D&D since the 90s, which shapes a lot of my expectations, and I have no sense of the history of the mud. Hopefully, a fresh perspective is useful for you and for the people administering the mud. If it seems naive, or perhaps it only tells you what you already know, then you have my apologies. Certain matters of simple consistency aside (why a trainer would not know how to attain components for the spell he teaches, aside from the very obvious OOC explanation that it's a pain to script), all of my observations are based on my previous experiences and the mud's help files.

Ceir wrote: And in response to Gwain, I can only restate that my own context of experience is that of an entirely new player. I've played D&D since the 90s, which shapes a lot of my expectations, and I have no sense of the history of the mud. Hopefully, a fresh perspective is useful for you and for the people administering the mud. If it seems naive, or perhaps it only tells you what you already know, then you have my apologies. Certain matters of simple consistency aside (why a trainer would not know how to attain components for the spell he teaches, aside from the very obvious OOC explanation that it's a pain to script), all of my observations are based on my previous experiences and the mud's help files.

My best response would be that the npc trainer might be keeping the component information secret. I don't administer the mud, so you don't have to offer any apologies. As experiences go for me, I come from most of the literary background of the realms. Tabletop not so much. I can say that you are playing one of the most challenging classes in the mud and I do understand your frustration, but things do get better for you as you improve, it just takes a bit more time.

Ceir wrote:In response to Alexan...
*snip*

Well, I can see why you would feel that it stinks as only a class feature and how much time it takes up. Since this is game suggestions and not game discussions, I won't make a lasting argument here, all I'll say is just as I needed to run around to find weapons and armor as well as feats and skills, same thing for wizards with components and spells, and as Gwain said, it is the most difficult class. And since people with more experience and a better handle have answered, I'll tip my hat and leave.

I will say though, if you are ever feeling that you are lacking RP or need help, throw a note up on the board. I check it daily and Alexan loves to help.

Some time ago, I had a fancy to play a Calishite wizard. I've clocked 135 hrs with him and am only lvl 7. The trainer in the newbie area has only detect magic available. Nowhere close have I found a wizard trainer and I'm afraid of venturing out of the city at such low levels.

Replying to a post above:
Components out of stock are a problem in Menzo, for instance. I've put off playing a drow wizard for time unknown due to this fact.