Forgotten Kingdoms Forums

A proposal for trades


I have a love for the trades in FK and I recently came back and saw the new crafting system. It works pretty nice but it cuts out on the rp aspect of it some, but we can always rp working on it before we log out so it actually gets underway, but the time it takes in between making a piece and finishing it takes about a week give or take I have been told. Thats with playing and not just logging in at all I think. Anyway the way it stands trades are pretty much dead except mining, smithing, and lapidary. And talking to players and figuring out numbers the way they work it would take with a 75% increase on the skills going up 30 years of Real life time of constantly making stuff to GM any of the trades that use the new system. I won't bug you with the numbers I have but even with a rough estimate that is just to far long. A year two years tops to gm a trade or several is a good trade off and investment for those wanting to rp a crafter type. Some of the components in game even require bits from the mining and smelting trades if I remembe correctly. I just wanted to voice my opinion and hope for a change so that those like myself can see trades come to life again. They are far to limited in scope to be offered to the majority of the game. Most are limited to class and or race currently just to find and learn them from quest. The teacher feats would come in handy but it just doesn't seem many will take them because the requirements for those even can seem a bit steep. Since when they where instituted people had some disposable stats via glory, but thats not the case these days. I was thinking perhaps those could be reworked a little so that it might be more appealing to others because thats the only way to teach anything other than mining currently. I persoanlly believe that a trade shouldn't be hidden behind super hard quest, because even the everyday joe(even in a fantasy world) Could go and learn any of these as a profession via apprenticeship. I do however believei t should be behind a quest that is informative and teaches them about the said trade so they know what they are roleplaying. Now I have a few suggestions and would love to see others add there voice and opinions to it!

1. Allow all trades to be for all races if it fits their rp

2. Add in quests in several areas that might teach people as they learn the trade(willing to come up with some)

3. Allow people to send in rp logs for others of them rping there profession and they could earn a gain or two in said trade

4. Perhaps increase the gains or do several more checks when making a piece of armor/weapon via the trade when logged out

5. Do more quests that are only for the more advanced craftsman. As they learn more in there trade they can be taught more advanced techniques.

6. Perhaps make it so craftsmen rpers can learn 3 crafts upon creation atop of there main craft requiring kismet cost for each one and it slows there (adventuring class skill gains down by x amount) but it raises thre craft leveling skill by the same that is nerfed.

I agree with most of these.

Expand please? I want people to discuss. I really want to get trades back in action and plausible to even try using. I'd love to see varying craftsmen rp. Discuss what can be done so it doesnt take that many years to level up but it should take an investment into it. What can be done if someone's found to be abusing them, and strict guidelines about racial like metals and things crafted of them.

theolund wrote:1. Allow all trades to be for all races if it fits their rp

2. Add in quests in several areas that might teach people as they learn the trade(willing to come up with some)

3. Allow people to send in rp logs for others of them rping there profession and they could earn a gain or two in said trade

4. Perhaps increase the gains or do several more checks when making a piece of armor/weapon via the trade when logged out

5. Do more quests that are only for the more advanced craftsman. As they learn more in there trade they can be taught more advanced techniques.

6. Perhaps make it so craftsmen rpers can learn 3 crafts upon creation atop of there main craft requiring kismet cost for each one and it slows there (adventuring class skill gains down by x amount) but it raises thre craft leveling skill by the same that is nerfed.

You have to be careful with balancing value vs. availability. If you make it so everyone can have several crafts upon creation and that it's capable to progress much faster, we're going to end up with 75% of the player base being GM in all the trades at level 50. There will be little or no RP among craftsmen because they'll be entirely self-sufficient. It will also greatly decrease the value of any player-made items because of how many would be available. I have no problem having the trades become more readily available (and honestly, it's pretty easy to get most trades now, especially compared to years ago), but it should still require a very legitimate time of investment and effort.

I think having trade-oriented quests would be awesome. I would say the staff would be very supportive if you went and applied for an area and put trade-oriented quests in it. Just remember, the staff has lots of responsibilities so it'll likely require a player to get these quests implemented.

But honestly, I find that the trade system in FK is seriously lacking in value. Weaponsmithing honestly has very little value outside of RP since everyone and their brother is running around with +1/+1 weapons from random quest rewards (a masterwork weapon is only +1/0). Armoursmithing is useful if you can land a suit of mithril full plate armour, but is again not as valuable when you can get magical armour for every location except your arms and legs.

I'm not trying to say the trade system is meaningless - it's a lot of fun still and a good source of RP. It has a serious amount of potential, considering the depth we've put into. But it's going to require more expansion (namely, a way of making magical weapons/armour/jewelry) to fully maximize the value of our current trade system.

I want people to discuss it(It being my idea's and the current in game situation). On some trades you just can't get it like armour smithing unless you are a dwarf.(I won't go into more as it's to much ic info) The same way fletching and leatherworking is restricted to the woodsy types. All in all it's not just about mithril armor or this or that it's about the fun and wealth of rp the trades represent. It takes time dedicated to working on it. I just wish it wasn't all offline now. It makes you NOT play your character to craft something now. I just want to see it in working order and fun to play to those that like that kind of rp. Let me reitterate it's more about the rp not every tom, dick, and harry should be running around in mithril fullplate. It's rare among everyone less so with dwarves. The same with elven made goods and so forth and so on. There should be rules and guidelines instilled to prevent abuse like in the past. Let not one person ruin it for the rest of us. I'm a bit ignorant on the way it works as is. I'm trying to get hands on so I can relate my time with the crafting system. I hope to add more to this at a later time.! Here are some more thoughts btw:

1. It will take far to long than the life of any character and possibly even the mud to gm as is.

2. Having to log out to make a trade is just well it cuts the rp out completely. I think some parts should be online.

I think that the current weapon and armour trade system works well for the most part, though skill increases need to come more often and creation time for rare material or mastercraft weapons should be halved in order to warrant more player characters making more crafted weapons and armour. I find that the current system is great for players that never have enough time to be online, but poor for players that either mass produce or roleplay craft. Its solved the old problem where dozens of junk items are pumped into a market system, but we have a new merchant system, so you can't necessarily peddle junk anymore period. So it might be a good idea to look at evaluating how crafting can work in the current system, seeing as we have a very high influx of entry level smiths and a very low influx of master craftsmen unlike we did when the the new system went in.

I totally agree Gwain! Perhaps some players can be seeded that want to rp a trade via application, or just make it so that with hard work people who have a mind can actually reach such a level of skill?

Gwain sums up most of my feelings, as well. My only points of disagreement are the following:

Gwain wrote:I think that the current weapon and armour trade system works well for the most part

I don't think it works well at all. After the system change I pretty much lost all interest in trying to gain any further on Werthic even though I was finally closing in on the last rounds towards GM of armorsmithing. Even the old system took forever just to GM (I have 795 hours on Werthic who is an expert, for example, with little of that as RP time since the character was created specifically to be a GM armorsmith), but the new system would take years longer (yes, years).

Gwain wrote:seeing as we have a very high influx of entry level smiths and a very low influx of master craftsmen unlike we did when the the new system went in.

We never had a high influx of master craftsmen, ever. There were only a few player characters who had GM Armorsmithing. At least one of the three I know of were set as GM, not earned (Sharni's alt).

--

That said, I think these trades really need a hard look into their gain increases. Repeatable quests are fine and all, but like Athon, I am concerned about devaluing all the hours people like he and I worked to increase our skills to the level we did. I feel like one quest to get you a gain should be plenty, but GMing should be from the sweat of your own brow (so to speak). If gains were corrected to occur properly, it would alleviate all my concerns.

That said, I think these trades really need a hard look into their gain increases. Repeatable quests are fine and all, but like Athon, I am concerned about devaluing all the hours people like he and I worked to increase our skills to the level we did. I feel like one quest to get you a gain should be plenty, but GMing should be from the sweat of your own brow (so to speak). If gains were corrected to occur properly, it would alleviate all my concerns.

The funny thing about devaluing something that currently has little value to gain? You can't. You can polish a poop for hours and it will still be a poop. Having an entry level skill for years because the system is not tailored to foster master crafters is not a good thing. Those that strived and suffered for years under the old system should be open to changes that would make the ability to advance much easier. Especially if the characters closer or that have already gm'd are mostly inactive in the mud as a whole. I think its great that sweat, blood and tears yielded the mastering of those skills in a harsh system all those years ago, but for the future an effort might be made to make things easier for newer players that would utilize the trade system far more regularly.

The funny thing about devaluing something that currently has little value to gain? You can't. You can polish a poop for hours and it will still be a poop. Having an entry level skill for years because the system is not tailored to foster master crafters is not a good thing. Those that strived and suffered for years under the old system should be open to changes that would make the ability to advance much easier. Especially if the characters closer or that have already gm'd are mostly inactive in the mud as a whole. I think its great that sweat, blood and tears yielded the mastering of those skills in a harsh system all those years ago, but for the future an effort might be made to make things easier for newer players that would utilize the trade system far more regularly.

That about sums up my thoughts Gwain. Well said. It should still take work. And some guidelines put down for certain types of armour. Also in that people should rp with the smith the smith shouldn't just sell to every just anyone. Especially a master smith they tend to be more picky for there wares because of there knowledge and skill. We can't dictate who sells to who but we can see some good rp go with it and not just handing it out like candy is what I am trying to get at. Thanks!

So it appears there is consensus then, if in fact the maths are accurate, and it takes many, many years to reach GM on a trade, this is something that should be addressed directly. The rest seems dependant on someone stepping forward to add areas supporting trades.

I tested the new craft system when it came out two summers ago. Here is what I wrote at the time regarding the skill-up time (I was expert 2 at the time, trying to go master at armoursmithing):

I can't give exact numbers, but it's been 100 days since the new system came out (July 23rd) and I haven't seen an increase. You can call me a twink all you want, but I've been diligent in starting new crafts (within a half day or so) when one finishes.

Let's assume I got a skillup today. That means I still have 3 skillups left before I hit GM. Even if the time frame between skillups did not increase, that's 300 days until I hit GM. If we factor in an exponential increase in time between skillups, it's probably closer to 400 or 500 days to go from expert 2 to GM.

In the previous system, it took far more input time (mining, smelting, and construct armour 100s of times). It would take hours of tedious grinding, but I was able to get skillups in the expert ranges within a month of grinding. We're now looking at 3 times or more longer in this current system.

I haven't seen anything really change since this has happened, granted I haven't been playing as much. From that regard, I do think the improvement rate is way too slow at higher levels. The biggest issue is that there is no way to really devote your time to crafting without logging off. I think it would be nice to see non-masterwork crafts happen very quickly (~30 secs - 1 minute per piece of armour, for example) much like the old system, but still require the masterwork to take more time (although, not 1 week IRL). That way, players can devote more time to their craft if they choose, they can effectively roleplay crafting WHILE getting work done, and it keeps there from being a flood of masterwork items in the game.

I'll add one caveat though: I don't think this is a super useful change until the trades are more competitive and valuable in game.

I think pc mw crafter armour and even non gm crafted armour is worth it. It might not be the best quality but it's well made and someone put the time into making it even if it's just a txt based item . Alot of people don't care about having omfg the most awesome armour not everyone does. I could care less if my stuffs mw or magical as long as its sturdy. I would love to see where an item might show up to take longer or it might show not to take long but it keeps going and going and you might get something awesome or blessed or rare out of it. That would be pretty sweet.

theolund wrote:Alot of people don't care about having omfg the most awesome armour not everyone does. I could care less if my stuffs mw or magical as long as its sturdy.

You might not care, but crafting takes a long time to master. There's an amount of pride that goes into the creation of these goods. If I, as a crafter, want to sell something hand made that cost me hundreds of hours of my life just to be able to create, it damned sure better be much nicer than the mundane crap that you can find strewn all about the game.

If not, why would I waste valuable hours of my life toiling away at something when I could have just gotten a mundane piece of armor and afforded the cost of a rename by doing a number of quests? Does not compute.

I agree with Athon that crafting is a waste of time until high-end crafted armors have an advantage over mundane things you can buy for three hours of coin farming. If mithral armor gave the proper +2 to Dex mod like it does in normal 3.5, it would be on par with +2 enchanted plate. However, it doesn't, so it isn't. Without the carrot, all we feel is the stick.

Theolund, I have strong appreciation that you respect and value what you get from the craftsmen in the game, regardless of the quality. There is definitely an RP-side of crafting that can often be overlooked and this is what you like the most - rightfully so. However, I would say that you would tend to be in the minority in that regard (no disrespect intended). I think it's cool to be able to "commission" some armour from a smith and have it made for you - it makes for good RP and it's good to have some players that enjoy that side of it.

But after all the hours I've put into trades (among other players), the most potential I can reach is making non-magical armour and weapons that you can buy from a vendor is a little demoralizing. The trade system has a strong backbone and it could setup for a pretty spectacular player-run economy if handled right. That's what I'm really hoping to see change.

From what I see in this topic (and just from my perspective) is that you guys are getting your chocolate and your peanut butter all mixed up, which is delicious, but fattening.

And as a side note, all my books are packed up for a move, so I would like to relay at the moment all of my sources are coming from D20SRD (http://www.d20srd.org). If there is something there completely different than in the D&D books, I apologize and feel free to correct me.

It seems part of the consensus wants shorter times on skill ups and length of crafting, while another part wants the skills to have the capability, and even another part wants RP to be rewarded in the form of skill ups and such.

Now, feel free to tell me I'm wrong, but that's a lot to ask for all at once, if it's even right to ask at all. It seems to me, like most things on the MUD, crafting was adjusted to keep in line with tabletop. When your PC has downtime (in this case logged off) they go and make their craft checks where a nasty fail makes you have no progress beyond that as well as paying a certain amount of coin, and a higher success will give you more than usual progress. The difference is that in tabletop it's measured by total worth in sp, with a check every week. Is it a perfect system? No, but I can see where the roots lie and the reasoning behind it all.

The first part I can understand. With tabletop, there's a DM there at you can fast forward the time, as well as your character is only smithing a certain part of the day (6-8 hours) and still has time to do other things within a day. And I think Gwain summed up the point very well when he explained:

Gwain wrote: I think its great that sweat, blood and tears yielded the mastering of those skills in a harsh system all those years ago, but for the future an effort might be made to make things easier for newer players that would utilize the trade system far more regularly.

And it's a fair idea. Before there was the internet, people had to research and read tons of books or interview people or get first-hand knowledge on a topic before they could write a thesis or research paper or any body of work based on fact. Now that information has become more broad and accessible in general, should we punish younger people and handicap them because we were not given the same? And while you can argue it's good to learn the hard way, It should be an introduction and not the standard.

As Gwain said, I'm very respectful some people took years to master a craft, and I would have a lot of respect for those crafters OOCly and probably ICly (dependent on RP), but I'm not going to tie my hands up because they had it harder. And it still begs the question as to how fast you should change it. You still want a challenge, and you still want people who mastered the craft to still be able to feel special they've done so. Not a bad idea in theory, just needs fine tweaking.


The second idea I have some qualms with, especially if the first part is adjusted the way people would wish. I, like a lot of people I know, used to think when I was younger that the Forgotten Realms campaign was just too high magic in general, and it devalued magic items in a campaign when there were so many about. But as I grew older and came to understand Aber-Toril better and it's history, I realized that there are such special and magical items well recorded because there's thousands of years of established history, with many characters who devoted their lives and coming out with only one or two truly grand items. Let's look at the idea of crafting, and add the special materials, let's say mithril in this one, since it's pretty! My dwarf is an amazing Dwarven Defender, and he wants to craft a suit of mithril both for himself and generations to come. He gathers all the mithril he can, smelts it into outstanding quality ingots, and goes to work crafting.

(Since I do not know the exact coding on the MUD itself, I'll go with tabletop)

Full plate: 1,500gp
Mithril (Heavy Armor): +9,000gp
Masterwork: 0gp since it's included in cost
Divided by one-third since you are crafting and....
3,500gp or 35,000sp for conversion into the craft skill

Now, my dwarf has been working on crafting his entire life when he had downtime, and has a magic item that gives him a +5 for it, but he's also not very smart (10 INT, a shame). So at 20th level (50th on the MUD) he'd have 23 ranks, +5 for the magic, and +0 for INT. Add 10 for an average roll (since we are going on averages here), and the +2 dwarves get for metalworking and you have an average of 40 for your checks.

Now, take the DC and multiply it by the check and you have 800sp a week you can craft (which could be more or less depending on true rolls), and my dwarf should be done in a sound 43-44 weeks.

Taking from a post I read earlier found here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14871&p=95473&hilit ... day#p95473 Athon mentioned:

Athon wrote: - The games moves at 2 hours IRL = 1 day in-game. So you can theoretically plan around that. However, it is impossible to accurately predict FK crashing, copy-overs, and other things that might adversely affect the date in-game and as such, causing a change to your timing.

So, now knowing that d20srd weeks count as seven days (since they hold no campaign time but rather use standard time) and that every real life day holds twelve ingame days, we come up with a result of about 25 real life days. 25 days! That's twenty five days, almost one month, of being fully logged off on a character, and that's with no snags, no logging in to RP, nothing other than to check and make sure you're making progress on your craft and logging. And in vanilla rules there is no critical success or failure on a skill check, so I will not entertain the notion of hitting a bunch of twenties and finishing much faster.
Now, while it would be nice to have something like mithril fullplate fully craftable, How many of you are willing to not play your character for 25 days? Even if you move to an alt, will you really keep interest? Maybe, I'm not you and I could not decide that for you. But if everytime someone wanted special materials, and I knew I would have to spend the time to mine it, as well as those 25 agonizing days to craft it, I'm likely not going to.

And while some say, let's shorten the craft time and make the armors better, but then that completely contradicts the first idea that this MUD tries to keep items special, and the magic low (rarely seen a +3 item, I think). You'd be devaluing the whole idea by implementing both of those at once.

Athon wrote: ...much like the old system, but still require the masterwork to take more time (although, not 1 week IRL)

Now, as I said, I'm not the coder, I don't know exactly the time it takes for crafting to check, and I'm not going to say I do, but if we were going by tabletop rules, most people don't want to wait a week, do we really want to wait a month? I know eventually I would like to take that character out and RP them, and I would have that little voice in the back of my head telling me everything is just going to take longer now.




As for the RP standpoint in crafting, I feel this is something that should be done regardless. I RP everything my character does, from cooking, to writing (I sit with paper in my hand and a pose while I'm writing on google docs so I can still be there to RP as I write, though not everytime, enough times), to puppeteering and smithing. I feel that in a MUD with emphasis on RP, this should not be a complete standard, but I don't expect extras for doing something I feel is part of my RP. Normally I only don't RP what Alexan is doing in his hobbies if there is a time constraint, or if there's just too much RP already about him and I feel it would detract from others.


I'm not against exceptional RP leading to rewards, but I think that sending up logs to the staff would pretty much kill all their free time. If you take 5 people a day, which I would think is low, have them do RP in their trade, and then send logs up, that's a lot of time the staff will be taking to read and decipher each log, check to make sure it's not BS, then judge it and give skills. And then you run into the idea that now since we're judging RP, people can cry out that something is not fair.

Well, I RPed too! Why am I not getting the same skill ups he has!

A legitimate complaint if there is evidence of unfairness, but it comes down to the opinion of the staff member, and if they feel you weren't trying hard enough to RP or just sending up the logs to get the skill ups, then we have a whole new sphere of trades we'll have to work on. What it comes down to is I know the staff watches from time to time, and I've been rewarded doing things on my character they felt is true to the character and the RP. But it should be done on the staff's time, without using up more of what little time they have. We don't have an omnipresent DM to watch over all our shoulders, and that's why we have certain rules and systems in place to make up for that. And while we don't have them constantly over our shoulder, we should play as we do, bringing our A-game because we want to RP and have fun, not because we think there is someone there to reward us.

As for racial components, I think this is something the staff has addressed, if they are not still addressing. Without giving away info, I know firsthand that there are certain trade trainers that are racially dependent, and it was very frustrating for Alexan to learn that fact.





What I'm coming to the fact is, we all want our cake, and we all want to eat it. A wonderful idea in theory, but I cannot remember a day in this game where I have found Alexan unchallenged. And I think if everyone on this thread got what they wanted (without the contradictions), soon crafting itself would just become another boring copmonent to the game, with the same conversation later down the of minimizing it more, until there's nothing special, RP or mechanic wise about it. We all want that idea of earning something, but have to understand that we cannot fast forward time like with DMs, and that the staff has their opinions on what they would like to see introduced in the world, and the time frame for introduction of those items, ideas etc.


If I were to make a suggestion, people with an eye to the craft system, take one idea, get all the facts together, then approach the staff with what you would like changed. While this is a forum, an open forum at that, where everyone is throwing out ideas on it, if you want to see a change for the better get a good, strong, viable concern and bring it up. I've never seen the staff here throw out an idea without a strong discussion or point made that it would not fit, and I doubt they are going to now.

I'm sorry if my post was a bit negative, but I was hoping we can get an even field for this, and think what was best for the MUD. I do think everyone discussing this has the player base in mind, and in respect to that, I'm happy that this discussion is even taking place


Personally, I hate logging back in and seeing that my progress has stopped fully because I had to pay 2 copper in materials. If we did away with that, I'd be one happy boy. And while that is part of tabletop rules (If you fail a check by 5 or more, you have to pay), I was hoping that if we leave coin in our inventory, it can draw it from there rather than waiting for me to have to log back in and hit 'craft continue', just to log back out. But that's just my own idea into the mix.

Thanks for reading!

EDIT: Had to clean up a quote.

It seems part of the consensus wants shorter times on skill ups and length of crafting, while another part wants the skills to have the capability, and even another part wants RP to be rewarded in the form of skill ups and such

It's mostly just idea's thrown out here that might lead to fixing the current flaws with the system. The value of the armor as long as its decent I could careless and i know there are others that feel that same way. I don't want great or high magicla stuff. It's just retarded to be like mememememe I'm just greatly hoping to get the system in a working order that wont take years compounded on to years irl. I do think a random EXTREMELY random item could come out above mw but I'm not really caring if it comes to that. I just would love to see crafts out in the wide world of fk again

Alexan wrote:As Gwain said, I'm very respectful some people took years to master a craft, and I would have a lot of respect for those crafters OOCly and probably ICly (dependent on RP), but I'm not going to tie my hands up because they had it harder. And it still begs the question as to how fast you should change it. You still want a challenge, and you still want people who mastered the craft to still be able to feel special they've done so. Not a bad idea in theory, just needs fine tweaking.

Because it likely isn't clear to most, I'm not saying that everyone should suffer the way the old crafters suffered. What I'm saying is that it shouldn't be something that you can GM quickly. Take disarm skill as an example: it takes quite a while to GM, but there was a distinct advantage for people who did take the time to GM it. That said, I don't think the prerequisite for making full plate armors (or even using special materials to make full plate armors with) should be Master or GM, either.

Alexan wrote:Full plate: 1,500gp
Mithril (Heavy Armor): +9,000gp
Masterwork: 0gp since it's included in cost
Divided by one-third since you are crafting and....
3,500gp or 35,000sp for conversion into the craft skill

Worth noting: the DC for the creation of full plate is 18 and the masterwork component (which includes the materials) is treated as a separate check with a DC of 20. This information for below.

Alexan wrote:Now, take the DC and multiply it by the check and you have 800sp a week you can craft (which could be more or less depending on true rolls), and my dwarf should be done in a sound 43-44 weeks.

Alexan already knows this, but for others who are unfamiliar with D&D: even if you rolled a 1 on your check in Alexan's example, your Dwarf would still progress smoothly with no possible chance for failure or hinderance. As above, the highest of the two DCs is 20 and they're made in separate rolls. Rolling a 1, plus racial modifier (2), plus regular artisan's tools (0) + ranks in craft (23) + his magical crafting item (5) = 31. With a 31 it is impossible NOT to hit the DC in his example. What he's referring to is progress which as he explained is your check (all your bonuses [30] plus your actual 20-sided dice roll) multiplied by the DC of the item.

Alexan wrote:So, now knowing that d20srd weeks count as seven days (since they hold no campaign time but rather use standard time) and that every real life day holds twelve ingame days, we come up with a result of about 25 real life days. 25 days! That's twenty five days, almost one month, of being fully logged off on a character, and that's with no snags, no logging in to RP, nothing other than to check and make sure you're making progress on your craft and logging.

Except your premise is wrong: you must take into account that in D&D, crafting is a full suit of armor, not a single piece you're crafting. In FK that full suit is divided into 7 pieces. Whatever amount of weeks we come up with needs to be divided by 7 pieces. The range of progress in your example is 620 to 1,000 sp/week. 58 weeks maximum, 35 weeks minimum. That equals out to 34 RL days to 21 RL days for a full suit. So, at most that's only 5 RL days down for a single piece of mithral full plate. Sounds like a winner to me. Would I sacrifice 5 days of playing a character for a piece of real mithral full plate (max dex bonus of +3, not FK's +2) that can be enchanted? Hell yes, I would.

Alexan wrote:And in vanilla rules there is no critical success or failure on a skill check, so I will not entertain the notion of hitting a bunch of twenties and finishing much faster.

Before anyone else attempts to tackle this claim, he's right in this example:

d20srd.org wrote:If the result x the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you've completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time.

Even with a full 23 ranks, masterwork artisan's tools (+2), racial modifier (+2), magical item for crafting (+5), and a maximum roll (20), you have only a bonus of 52. 52 x 18 = 936 - nowhere near close to the cost even for the base item (full plate armor).

Even still, I've noticed that crafting system fails an inaccurate amount of times as I've posted here and have yet to see any mention in code updates forum that it's been tweaked. My armorsmith has at least a 17 in ranks (he's Expert, not sure of the level), has 16 Int (for a +3 craft bonus), is a Dwarf, and has not been attempting masterwork quality armors. Even if I roll a 1, that leaves 0% chance to actually fail on a craft attempt of up to full plate armor (which I can't make) even if he's not getting his racial modifier or Int bonus to crafting, yet in FK he is still failing repeatedly.

TL;DR:

Crafting system is fine as-is, provided more progress in skills is made during downtime or after the item is finally crafted.
Crafting materials need to be automated or excluded from the cost of crafting.
Mithral is extremely hard to get and deserves its full +2 to max dex bonus.
Crafting failures are too frequent and need to be adjusted appropriately to match 3.* rules.
More incentive to craft should be available (enchanting would be nice).
Crafting high-end armors should not be limited to people with high levels in craft skill.
Materials (aside from special materials like adamantine) should not increase the DC related to the craft check (unconfirmed, but listed here). Likewise, neither should the quality of those normal materials.

Excellent reads from Alexan and Selveem. However, I would like to point out that there is some disconnect between tabletop and FK. Some things need to be overlooked for the sake of the game. There are two prime examples in FK: that we can travel between Waterdeep and Zhentil Keep in less than one hour game time and that you can meditate to recover spells instead of resting for 8 hours. There are other examples, but these are two good ones. We suspend the rules of tabletop for the sake of making this game enjoyable, with respect to its style (an mmorpg).

In my opinion, crafting should be the same way. For any of the 'good' masterwork suits of armour, I'm fine with a lengthy process (1 week RL per piece x 7 pieces ~= 50 days). But if every piece (non-masterwork) is like that, there is little opportunity for crafting RP because you have to be logged out to make ANY progress. I can't make a set of cheap armour for a newbie (RP between me and new player > vendor-bought armour, in my opinion) because it takes 2 weeks to make. So, in an RP-enforced MUD, crafting has very little opportunity for RP enjoyment in this game, other than self-gratification that you GM'd it.

Athon wrote:... So, in an RP-enforced MUD, crafting has very little opportunity for RP enjoyment in this game, other than self-gratification that you GM'd it.

@Selveem: I'd make a rebuttal to some points you introduced but I think Athon brings up a point that I'd like to focus on.


@Athon: This is a mixed bag to be brought up, since it goes both ways. Crafting is more or less done on downtime, and I think the staff found a good mix between it. To be fair, no one is stopping you from RPing your crafting, and you bring up a good point with the masterwork. It's as I said in my initial post, getting that tweak going to find a good balance between speed and efficiency, while maintaining that challenge. It comes down to if you truly want crafting to be something mundane and quick, or like Selveem suggested, making truly capable items. Both seems like it's an unfair compromise for the staff and players.

Travel time and meditation is reduced because if wizards and clerics truly had to wait 8 hours (longer if you go by RP prayer times), then no one would want to play them. Same as with travel, if I took a whole day just to travel for another city, no one would ever be there because everyone would gather in one city to RP.

Theolund did make a good point that he'll wear armor not that great for an RP reason, and I respect that. And that's what it boils down to I guess. How much challenge, and RP, do you want to negotiate with? Because if I can make a suit of plate mail in a half hour, I tell you, that will devalue the whole thing for me, both challenge and RP wise.