Forgotten Kingdoms Forums

I was travelling through an area recently that had undead, and I killed one, only to find that Ilmater disfavoured me for it. Is there a way perhaps that killing undead could be offset, because I'd understand why the code would dislike me killing anything, but I don't see why Ilmater wouldn't want me to kill undead.

Paxos

Something about Ilmater's favor is a little confusing to me. Sometimes a kill will be favored (Like a ghast), not noticed at all (A skeleton) or frowned upon (An orc, goblin, ect.). But shouldn't all these be favored? The ghast/skeleton because they're undead, and the orc/goblin because they're not only evil, but cause nothing but suffering to those around them; they loot, pillage, and raze settlements. So, is this just a coding problem, or is this intentional?

Argentia wrote:Something about Ilmater's favor is a little confusing to me. Sometimes a kill will be favored (Like a ghast), not noticed at all (A skeleton) or frowned upon (An orc, goblin, ect.). But shouldn't all these be favored? The ghast/skeleton because they're undead, and the orc/goblin because they're not only evil, but cause nothing but suffering to those around them; they loot, pillage, and raze settlements. So, is this just a coding problem, or is this intentional?

I second that question.....

Maybe I'm coming from a different logic (please illuminate me otherwise), But when I study Ilmater's place in the FR ethos, he is a God of the Human race. I can see his compassion extending to other humanoid races (elves, dwarves, and the like), but I have a hard time understanding his disfavor for killing a race that springs from the likes of Gruumsh, Lloth, or any other evil-spawned race. I would see in the planar scheme where Ilmater would have emnity with these powers merely based on said powers and their races' desire to exterminate, enslave, torture, etc. the humanoid races. And obviously, in a situation where such ilk are in the process of taking an innocent's life, killing in the name of defending the helpless is a mostly unavoidable situation. Alignment wise he is a Good diety, not a neutral, so wouldn't Evil races be anathema to Him?

Judging from Mystra's experiment with undead, I gather that the favor reaction for killing cannot directly be race sensitive?

No, the whole thing is that if you kill a living creature you are causing even more suffering. Ilmater gives aid to ALL, indiscriminately. Killing an undead creature does not because well, its already dead.

At least thats my impression of the faith.

Even if you think about it in the long run? Like, if there is a murderer on the loose, and killing him would ease the suffering of victims in the future? Though, I suppose you could jail the murderer, thus ending his reign. Hmmm, but what about orcs and the like, when you can't jail them? Any ideas on routes alternate to killing to RP to keep them from harming others? You can stun them in battle, but they'll always wake up and if they're smart enough, follow you.

There is a "group of Ilmatari monks, the Broken Ones, who act as defenders of the faithful and the church's temples, as well as agents of punishment for those who cruelly harm others."
Guess this means that Ilmater is not opposed to using force against those who cruelly harm others (those of evil alignment, like orcs) regardless of whether they are living or undead.
Maybe Ilmatari can be given favour for healing others or killing those of evil alignment, and be frowned upon when inflicting pain or death on those of neutral or good alignments? Since Ilmater teaches to "help all those who hurt, no matter who they are... stand up to tyrants, and allow no injustice to go unchallenged."

Hmm... I'm not very sure about killing those of evil alignment (e.g. orcs). Don't you think orcs might have feelings too? So should an Ilmatian(or Ilmateri, not sure which now) really rid of the evil that causes suffering? Won't killing the evil to take away suffering "inflict pain" (emotional) to the evil's family? I'm kinda confused here...

-Me

Ilmater is a generous, self-sacrificing deity who is willing to shoulder any birder whether it is a heavy load or terrible pain. He is a gentle god, kind, quiet and good-spirited. Generally he is non-violent but in the face of cruelty and atrocities his wrath is dreadful to behold. He is particularly careful to protect young children from those who would hurt them.

This was taken from the Zarbreener website.
I can see where there can be such a problem trying to figure out where favour for killing those of evil alignment. In my oppinion Ilmater is not an EVIL god, so the pain that would be caused by destroying evil is far less than the pain that said evil creatures can inflict on innocent people.

Orcs are not known for their compassion in battle, they do not care if they leave someone alive, but without legs to suffer and bleed to death on the battle field. They kill women, children, anything that stands in their way of taking their rightful place as the leaders of the realm.

I would say that killing the creatures that cause this kind of pain would be the lesser of the two evils for him. But that is just my opinion.

I agree with Algon. The same thing can be said about many faiths. Many times a follower has only a choice of two evils. Not everything is black and white as they say. There's that whole grey area where it comes down to the choice of the individual.

Perhaps not everything is black and white, but the code cannot form it's own opinions like that. "It's okay you killed that orc, he ate my pie." "You should not kill that orc, he got me flowers." is not something code can say. It is either all or none when it comes to it. :) Just my thoughts.

~Danica

I wholeheartedly agree with Algon. That was my point I was originally trying to make.=P But Mele brings up a good point, the coding. So the question is, can the code be set so that an Ilmaterian killing an evil-aligned mob would NOT be frowned upon? I think this is already somewhat in effect, because when I kill certain Orcs but my favor goes down but other Orcs my favor remains unneffected, killing bandits never decreases my faith, but killing a hostile Kobold which attacks on sight does hurt favor. But through detect evil, those are all evil mobs. I hope I didn't reveal any IC info there.

So, can the code can be formed such that killing evils in general perhaps does not effect favor(Since it IS inflicting pain it wouldn't raise it, but it's keeping pain from happening in the future so it wouldn't lower it)? If that sort of coding is in effect now, it has me baffled.o_O

And Alvinah brings up a good point, but do you think creatures and people of such extreme evil like this are "family" people?=P And Orcs and killers don't regard their victims' feelings, so a good dose of disregarding their feelings right back might put them in line.=P Although, that seems more of an approach for a follower of Tyr rather than Ilmater.

I feel the preferable way to gain favor is through roleplay and consistence of action. If I see you, or get feed back from others, and you are acting the part, I will make sure you get favor or supp' object. The better your appropriate roleplay and the more you will get rewarded. Long running RP... submitting for and following through on long running RPs or tiny plots... or building (or contributing to some one who is building) Ilmarite type areas such as temples, shrines, respits, hospices, refuge camps, orphanage, etc.

And please do not wait till you see me in who to log in. I have a few alts and I watch whats going on more often than I may appear to be on. btw... if you have prayed to follow I can not quest you till I see you logged in.

Ilmater

Reply from Ilmater himself? Now there are words you can trust! =) I always try my best to act like an Imaterian, because that's what makes my character so fun to RP. It gets her in trouble sometimes, though, but that's always fun. I didn't think that favor was gained all that often through RPing, but I will definately keep that in mind from now on.

Now, by building, do you mean IC, or building as in coding/building a new area?

I think it actually means both IC and OOC. ICly, you build a church for your God/Goddess while OOCly (I'm not very sure about this, though)you build areas for the area you're building ICly.

Somewhere in the forums... there're some posts on building areas even if you're not a builder or imm. So I guess you'll have to follow those instructions... If I come across those posts again, I'll post the URL up here so you can access that page easily.

-Me

When you apply to build an area, Sharni tells you it's okay to rp designing the area. :) Don't think any one person can build an area alone so design sounds a lot better. :P But imagine the uber favor you'd get for designing your god a temple? :)

~Danica