Weapons in general

[Yemin]

So looking at the quite nice spread of weapons we have here. I wanted to ask if anyone can see the advantages in some of them.

what i'm speaking off mostly are things like the chains category. Is the help file accurate? Do both morning stars and nunchucks require exotic weapon proficiency and if so. should they?

I don't have a dog in this as it were. But I'm speaking here from the perspective that weapons costing a feat point to use, in turn usually have some advantage to them as exists with bastard swords and katanas.

[Areia]

Morning stars are not exotic weapons, and the helpfile accuratly reflects that.

To the question, though, bastard sword and katana aside, I've found exotic weapons here to be largely an RP choice, myself. My monkish char is proficient with tonfa, sai, and kama, and I think I'm going to pick up more like those. But as far as any reason to spend a feat point on these other than for RP purposes, I can think of none.

In SRD of course you get some pretty nice bonuses with some of these weapons, like a bonus to disarm with spiked chains, sai, etc, or entangling with nets. But none of that here yet.

As an aside, I think bastard swords and katanas could be made even more useful (i.e., more commonly used with varying grips than in just one hand as seems to be all the rage) if some command could be added to somehow draw right into both hands, without having to draw then "hold sword both" or what have you.

[Yemin]

Ha, I took the star in morning star as an *. Ah screen reader you amuse me.

Would it be out of the realm of possibility since we already have disarm skill for some of these weapons to be given a +2 or +3 skill ranks to disarm sa a part of their weapon type?

[Areia]

Ha, I took the star in morning star as an *. Ah screen reader you amuse me.

I know your pain, man. To this day every time I read that helpfile my brain goes, "Wait... What? Morning stars are...? Ohhhhhh." lol

Would it be out of the realm of possibility since we already have disarm skill for some of these weapons to be given a +2 or +3 skill ranks to disarm sa a part of their weapon type?

I imagine at least one reason that might be given for not doing this, though it's probably simple enough to do, is that every character wielding one of those weapons is now in possession of what amounts to, in our rule set, a pretty powerful magical item. That is to say, f.e., wizards here don't have the disarm skill and the designers want it to stay that way in most cases. Things that grant non-class skills should be difficult to obtain.

That's totally just my first thought as to why it's not been done already, though. I really have no idea and am probably way off. I'd personally love to see it.

[Yemin]

Eh, that sounds like a reasonable guess though I'm unconvinced that inept level disarm will do anything when apprentice disarm with the proper stats to back it up still sometimes fails on level appropriate or lower level opponents.

To my knowledge there is at least one item that grants a skill bonus that is incredibly easy to gain once you know about it and from that I would hazard a guess as to say there are probably 1 or 2 more I don't know about though the one i mean is for a general skill everyone gets so.. ya.

[Yemin]

Reviving this thread mostly to throw a question at Harroghty and other traditional weapon enthusiasts.

You've said several times around these parts that fantasy writers don't know anything about real weapon categories. I was mostly wondering why you don't cart blanche and move a few weapons around as they should be placed? FK seems a good environment since we don't strictly adhere to the rules and all that. Or is the problem deeper than what sword fits where?

This was mostly spurred because I've noticed that katanas are used like great blades when held in two hands which confuses me. I'm fairly sure on the rare occasions samurai actually used their katana they would have fighting styles that switched between one hand and two han use and a katana has neither the width or same shape as a great sword. And since Great swords from what I've read were mostly used to clear lines of spear points / pikes and the men behind them by infantry in great sweeps, and the purpose behind a Katana was tied up more in ceremony perhaps even ritualistic battle. I don't see how they'd be used anything like each other.

I'm not sure Eijutsu would fit a great sword anymore than chopping pikes and spears down on the batlefield would suit Katana.

[Harroghty]

I am not sure that you could account for differences between historical use and gaming use by just moving weapons between categories. Rather than creating code which allows for the nuance of individual weapons it might be easier to just use smotes to describe how a weapon is being used. Sure, weapons within categories are used differently but the game system is designed to confer some basic experience upon those familiar with SRD/D20. Weapons are grouped according to damage type, not necessarily use; it's not perfect, but what's the alternative?

[Yemin]

It is an unsimple issue. However. I think some steps could be made in the right direction with a combination of reallocating weapons into a more suited category alongside letting characters choose weapons to be proficient with at character creation.

To clarify I mean the weapons themselves if that's possible and not weapon categories. Warrior's get more options and slots for it. Wizards get less etc.

The first makes sure that once someone picks a weapon to be proficient with. They don't end up learning that holding it in two hands or one makes their initial intention towards mastery of their chosen weapon half tossed out the window by game code and WOTC development team logic.

The second, I think would enrich the experience of coming to fully master your favored weapon. This would be a change that almost entirely benefits the roleplay of warriors and martial characters because as is a person can train with a scimitar, a cutlass, a saber and end up a master in katanas.

Or equally, a long sword, a broad sword, and then end up a master of a bastard sword's one handed use.

This, through my own experience does not help a martial character connect with the iconic part of her character. Her weapon. Instead it seems to cheapen it by making everything kind of samey. It, for me would be a positive, passive system to encourage deeper thought into your choice of weapong and your fighting style.

This would also mean we could do away with exotic proficiencies. I honestly don't believe this feat is helping anyone. There are some weapon categories completely filled with so called exotic weapons such as whips, and the truly exotic weapons from eastern or asian earth-like cultures do not have their disarm / trip bonuses attached to them in game and so you are paying a feat for no actual mechanical benefit. The game already does well with the glory system for paying for roleplay options and would personally like to see this oddity addressed as well.

So, thoughts?

[Vaemar]

I wonder if this has been implemented to some extent?

I have just tested with the sai and shuriken found in Westgate and I don't have any penalty in my score sheet despite not having the said proficiencies.

If not they are bugs.

edit: a little expansion on this. I think that in some instances exotic weapon proficiencies are nice, in the sense that the payback for the investment is that you get access to several enchanted items most people discard because they did not spend the feat point for them. Siangham is definitely an example of this, but sai or kama could be valid as well. On top of it they limit the use of weapons that would, if too widespread, ruin a bit the setting. Seeing a few characters with a naginata is all right, even more so if they come from Eastern lands, seeing naginata being used as any polearm definitely would not be so nice in my humble opinion.

On the other hand the existence of these feats makes certain roles supposed to use those weapons quite penalized. The first example that comes to mind is drow priestesses who cannot use the beautiful whip they get from a quest/guild for them because they are extremely feat starved, and a feat for a cool looking weapon that makes 1d3 of damage is something most builds cannot allow. And same story could be made for many Eastern characters who have to spend more than one proficiency to simply use weapons that would be otherwise normal for their cultures. Not to mention races who are supposed to receive the proficiency and actually don't, like dwarves who need to train dwarven war axe as a proficiency!

Although even here it is not always that bad. First not all these weapons are as widespread as one could think, and they are often exotic even in their lands of origins. Sai or nunchaku, for example, are used in the real world mostly on Okinawa, not even in all Japan, not to mention whole Asia. Which corresponds on Toril, actually, to some parts of Wa. So a nunchaku is not so much less exotic for a Shou or even a Kozakuran, i.e. Toril's Chinese and Japanese people, than it is for a Waterdhavian. In some other cases the weapon is not truly exotic at all, but what is exotic is a certain way of using it. Bastard sword and katanas can be used with two hands with the normal proficiency, and in fact are martial weapons per srd, in that instance. What makes them exotic is using them with one hand. Even in real Japan, in fact, using a katana with one hand is relatively uncommon, as far as I have seen.

Last but not least, maybe there could be some building solutions to let people gain the proficiencies in the weapons they should be supposed to use, especially when these weapons don't give so many advantages, or are supposed to be common among the race, such as some of the above examples.

What I would be absolutely against is to code new exotic weapons in addition to the ones present now. I'd rather prefer for any new weapons to either be made from an existing category, such as hand crossbow which are light crossbows or barbed war fans which are short swords.

[Talos]

What about having the exotic weapon proficiency apply to groupings of weapons rather than specific ones? You might take the exotic feat for all weapons in the whips category rather than scourges in particular?

[Vaemar]

I personally like the present system, with the above caveats. I think that in general such a modification would not really address the "problems" mentioned above.

First there will be some discrepancies between categories, since in some there are several exotic weapons (some categories are even made up entirely of exotic weapons to begin with) while other categories have just one. For example exotic weapons polearms would unlock only the naginata, while thrown projectiles the shuriken and the boomerang. This would on one hand have exotic proficiencies of different values, while the idea of an exotic proficiency, as I take it, is to either give an advantage or a characterization to the character. In this way that would to an extent be reduced. Not to mention that some weapons, such as boomerang and shuriken, don't really have that much in common to be fair.

Secondly, and quite more importantly, the issue is for characters who are feat starved already. So if they don't have a feat point left for whip, they neither have a feat point for whip+scourge. It does not solve even the problem of the double proficiency that affects some classes, such as thieves. For example my Beshaban thief cannot use her supplicate weapon because she has only one feat point available, and she would need two, one for the general proficiency in whips and another for the exotic weapon proficiency scourge. In the case of whips I actually think it could be one of the cases where making them non-exotic could be worthwhile, given that they neither they really look so exotic nor give here any real advantage over other weapons.

It is not a truly huge issue anyway, I just mentioned it above since there was this odd test with sai and shuriken I did.

[Gwain]

What about having the exotic weapon proficiency apply to groupings of weapons rather than specific ones? You might take the exotic feat for all weapons in the whips category rather than scourges in particular?

I'd love that!