Forgotten Kingdoms Forums

This has peripherally come up for my PC, but would likely come up for other PCs I have in the future.

I have no questions about using copyrighted verses/songs either spoken, sung, or published in the game; it's very clear that you don't do that. However, in an IC exchange, my PC quoted two lines from one of the various versions of "John Barleycorn," an English folk song first published in the 17th century, and he has also quoted a stanza from the Icelandic poem "Havamal," which was probably transcribed in the 13th century from an older source. He didn't claim either as his own ("My mother sung/said that" fits quite nicely), but since I haven't seen anyone else using folk material either in performance or quotations, I wanted to get some feedback on this.

I would think that a bard would likely have a number of things - Child ballads, Icelandic scaldic poem, old Anglo-Saxon lyrics, medieval Arabic verse - in his or her repertory, depending on his or her interests and cultural background, and that others who are *not* bards would likely know a few of these as well. To me it would seem that quoting or even performing (for bards or particularly brave/foolhardy non-bards with a bard's bemused accompaniment) these works, with necessary changes to make them fit the world and with the clear statement that "I heard this/learned this as a child" rather than "I wrote this," would be both appropriate and enjoyable, for that person and those listening.

Now, I know that (or sort of know that) there can be some reward for performance, and I could see that rewards might/should be greater for performing original material. Does that preclude, however, singing a folk song just because you know it, and others might enjoy it?

What do y'all think?

-M/H (who can probably remember all 42-odd verses of "Tam Lin" but promises *not* to demonstrate this fact)

I don't see a problem with it so long as it is in theme and is keeping in mind the fact that these songs can be rather... err.. saucy, shall we say. Just make sure that you are keeping within the language guidelines.

I actually remember one day when I sang The Lusty Young Blacksmith, if you know the song, you know it is full of innuendo and double entendre. I think I have also done All Among The Barely and a couple of other of the old SCA favourites, strictly as performance things. The challenge at times can be making sure it fits the theme of the game

I would imagine that medieval and rennassaince music and song text have long since entered the public domain.

P.S. I know I spelled them wrong.

I've done some old folk songs and that sort of thing, since they're in the public domain (I did skip over the Lusty Young Smith, however).

This is sort of related to the topic, so I'm using this thread:

Would a dramatisation of a folk song or tale (ie plays based on them, but fleshed out and with additional detail/dialogue) count as publications if written, or only if performed? Or neither?

Though not to answer the above question, I have my own. RL, I'm part of a medieval/renaissance group where we do have bards, I try to be one when work doesn't suck me in, but we share songs among each other, and though we acknowledge the composer, I'm not sure exactly how copywrited these songs are, but as I said, are usually freely shared among the bards of the 'game'. I was curious, that if such songs do fit into FK, if we might be able to use them as part of our performances, though not taking credit of writing them in game.

Since there hasn't been an answer to my question yet, I'm going to sort of bump this and add another question. My bard was given the idea of flipping the phrase 'a song that tells a story' and instead try to come up with 'a story that tells a song'. I have a couple ideas though one of these stories is based off of a song that was written by someone RL. The lyrics and credits can be found at this address:

http://www.whiskeybards.com/lyr_finelife.html

Part of why I ask is that I would plan on singing the song as part of the story, and so wanted to know if I could use it. I have another idea but wanted something for Saturday's festival ready.

While here, I was told to mention other songs that I was hoping that might be permitted to use in the game, which so far are by the same people. This first one is called the Wild Hunt.

http://www.whiskeybards.com/lyr_wildhunt.html

The last one is only if I can find three other singers to sing with since it is a round.

http://www.whiskeybards.com/lyr_comewalkwithus.html

Thank you

Don't we have any lawyer or specialists in "copyrights" amongst our playerbase who could give some information about this? I, for one, am at a loss at to what to answer.

Some of this may have changed since I was writing and publishing music, but...

Performance or publishing of actual folk tales or folk songs into a new medium is considered fair and allowable use. Since the works are in the public domain. It's sort of like, anyone could publish their own rendition of Cinderella, so long as there was no likeness made to Disney's illustrations of said story. Likewise I could arrange and record my own rendition of Scarborough Fair, and even profit from them. The group Mediaeval Baebes has built an entire musical career on re-recorded folk songs.

Modern songs, written or performed in a folk STYLE, however, are under the rules of modern copyright. This is where finer details come into play. It is considered fair use to perform or recite said works in a educational or nonprofit forum, much like I could get up on stage and sing Greg Kihn's "Breakup Song" in my 7th grade talent competition (yes, I did... say nothing). Where fair use ends is if I make a mechanical reproduction of said song, recording my own performance of it, for example, or putting the lyrics in print in a work of my own, that licensing has to be considered.

Being a written medium, the MUD brings the MOST copyrightable part of a literary or musical work into play, the lyrics (past precedent has demonstrated that basic melody and chord progression are not copyrightable, the lyrics and/or arrangement are.)

I would consider the "public performance" of said lyrics to be of the same fair use as a school talent competition. So long as it's not published as a work as your own (I would consider a permanent publication in-game to be publishing), I would think it to be perfectly acceptable.

Yay, I'm glad I got a ruling on that. I promise if my bard ever makes any song books or the like not to put any songs that is not their own creation (or mine RL) into the book, and always attribute the songs that are someone else's RL to some random NPC she heard it from.

One other question, what about filk? For those who don't know that term, it's basically taking the melody of a current song and applying new lyrics to it (or some cases changing the lyrics enough to make it a new song, I've seen both). The song in particular I am asking about is to the tune of "A Pirate's Life For Me" though it is called "A Squire's Life". It basically goes like this, I'm only inserting the original lines that might cause a bit of concern. The lines I don't put in are different than the original song.

Yo ho! Yo ho! A squire's life for me
<different line, original tune>
Drink up me hearties, yo ho!
<different line, original tune>
Drink up me hearties, yo ho!

And the song continues along with that. If you want me to post the full song, that's fine, it's not up somewhere. It was in a packet of SCA songs that would be good to know for a bard (an SCA one at least) so just was curious. Thank you

My understanding of parody/copyright issues from law class is that significant variations with reference to the original work are fair use. In other words, people will clearly see the reference to/inspiration from "A Pirate's Life" if you're making fun of it or using the song structure, but it changes a significant amount of the material, so that's ok.

The finicky details of parody vs. copright come into play when copied material is used for commerical gain, which isn't an issue on a MUD or casually in the SCA. Generally you should be able to make a case that you're not "ripping it off" if you're not claiming someone else's original work as your own (if it's well-known everyone KNOWS the parts that you borrowed. If it's not a well-known song, it's safer to give credit to a significant borrowed portion than to appear to be passing it off as all yours), if copying is necessary because you're doing a parody that makes fun of the original, and if the changes you make are significant.

The last one is probably the hardest part and isn't defined in American law. Parody is protected under fair use as long as the amount of borrowing is "reasonable". You're not Weird Al or The Simpsons so you don't have to worry about this as much, but obviously don't just change one or two words and expect to pass it off as something new. When in doubt, give credit where credit is due.

Here, the matter of parody or "filk" in game publications is one for the IMMs to decide. Although original work may be encouraged, I imagine the practice is already in place to make the call on a case-by-case basis about how much borrowing is "reasonable".

I know that some great Filk singers have published their songs. They might not be MASS circulated, but they are published and are sold to earn money. The ones I know of are from Star Trek, Star Wars and Sci-Fi and Fantasy Conventions. The ones I'd like to do I probably couldn't do because of Content.. hehehe....but the thing is, you can always contact the filkster or publisher and ask if you can use it in game. They might not let you publish in game for Platinum, but you never know. It never hurts to ask!