Allowing Drow to return to the surface... a discussion
Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:03 pm
I'd like to bring up the idea of Drow being able to return to the surface, to start off with at least in a limited fashion. I'd like to start out by pointing out the reasons Drow were removed from the surface in the first place, then go over some reasons why things have changed since then, and then come up with some counterarguments to Drow being allowed up again. I'd like to say I love all the work done with the Drow and with the MUSH as a whole, this is in no way to be implied as criticism, just a suggestion for a way I think the MUSH can be made better.
First of all, when Drow were first created, a lot of them wanted to be just like the coolest Drow around, Drizzt, because he is the one everyone has read about, the noble Drow who rejected Lloth to be a good surfacer. This is obviously an interesting choice for people because everyone wants to play the character who is different, and who is more different than a Drow who is good... it opens up a lot of interesting RP. Unfortunately it also created a really bad situation for Drow where most were good and just walked around on the surface not dealing with all the prejudices that drow should have to deal with. There were a lot more good Drow than evil, and that didn't allow for the creation of an evil drow culture. Also from what I hear, the evil Drow on the surface might have been a bit too involved in the more aggressive and antagonistic aspects of Drow culture, killing too many things, attacking too many people, PKing too much. For all these very good reasons the Drow were dealt with in two ways. The first was that they were restricted to the Underdark completely, the second was that a Drow roleplay policy was enacted (help drow alignment policy) that ensures that ALL Drow are evil unless they make special application, and even then they'd still be in the Underdark with all the evil Drow.
This situation went on for some time, but over time people have played less and less with the Drow for a number of reasons. Soemtimes there are more Drow, sometimes there are less, it goes in waves with a few people getting interested and bringing their friends, but in the end, almost all give up active roleplay of their Drow after a few months because of a few reasons which I will go over here.
1. Menzoberranzan not built to be an island - When Menzo was first built the Drow had access to the surface, so it didn't need to provide everything. A Drow who wanted to train in other things could go to the surface to gain skills and spells. Now I have never had a surfacer that was more than a test so I never realized how limited a lot of us are down here. No this game is not all about spells and skills and such, it's about RP and I think the Drow who do play do a great job with it. But consider that character growth in skill is something that reflects their growing in reputation and prestige, there's a very good reason the characters even in FR books are generally very powerful with lots of different skills and abilities... it's more interesting.
For those of you who think this is a silly complaint, consider that a Priestess in the Underdark can gain practically no favour once they reach a powerful level. Imagine only being able to train about 1/3 of the spells in your list. Then imagine that even of those spells you can train, most of them you can never cast due to too low favor. The same goes for mages, even those who can go to the trouble of getting scrolls from the surface can never gain the components to cast them. Even warriors can't gain much in the way of skills and feats that can make them competitive with surfacers. It's easy to say that the game isn't about skills or spells when you don't have to deal with this situation, but anyone who doubts me, i welcome you to make a Drow character and try it yourselves.
In line with this also, there is a largely limited area of action in the Underdark. The entire Underdark area to which we are restricted is easily less than half the size of Waterdeep. There is much less diversity of equipment, much less training and much fewer quests to deal with. I have spoken to surfacers who have hundreds of glory points. As the most active and well-traveled current Drow I have 13 glory points, at least 3 of those I received solely due to good RP. That is barely half enough to purchase a feat or stat point. Again, feats and stats are not the point of the game, but is there really anyone who can say that who hasn't used those glory points for something themselves? That is why they exist, to be used and to reward characters for doing things.
Not wanting to just whine about a problem, I have coded and sent in an extensive addition to the Underdark and would love to code more whether we reach the surface or not. I even bought a laptop with the idea expressly in mind that I can code more Underdark areas during my hours of downtime at work, so let's not get into, "Well if you don't like it just change it yourself." because I have tried to.
2. Lack of RP opportunities in the Underdark - I have tried to arrange RP events in the Underdark, trade fairs, surface raids, most were minor successes, a few people showing up... a lot of them never materialized. During my year or so playing here, I think it is a year, there has not been one surface raid by the Drow, mostly because of a lack of interest from the Drow since so few generally log on. When a Drow raid is possible, people prefer to log on their surface alternates who they regularly play to help deal with the Drow raid than to log on their Drow they haven't played in months to raid the surface, I can't blame them. The inherent problem with this is that for most interesting RP to occur in the Underdark, it needs to be admin directed, and the admins have limited time and resources to help us, I understand that very well. That's the main reason I want to be allowed for us to help ourselves by allowing us to expand back out. I don't expect the admins to hang around waiting for us to be ready, to cancel their weekend plans in case three Drow log on and want to raid, but it seems that without a few Drow on, it's not worth much of anyone's time.
I love to Rp with other Drow, we scheme and talk. I write books from a Drow's point of view, I travel around, I do everything I can to make things interesting. Then you get to the point where you and all the Drow you know have been everywhere you can go. Where you can go and cycle the one area that you have been cycling since level 30 to make money. Where you literally have nothing to say to one another since nothing new has happened in months, that conversation just becomes a non-issue. Imagine being stuck on a desert island with someone for years... you'd end up running out of things to say pretty quickly, because even the things that do happen are not that interesting... a new Drow was around a few weeks ago, haven't seen him since. A Matron yelled at someone, these are literally the things Drow have to talk about to one another a lot of the time. I used to scheme with surfacers to start alliances between my House and them. Some were great about it, and liked just the Rp opportunity. Others were more pragmatic about it, because Drow have literally nothing of interest to offer surfacers. Our adamantine armor and weapons disintegrate. We're not particularly rich. I would love to get involved in intrigue on the surface... have Drow fighters supporting the whims of some mad cleric, have Drow bringing strange magic back down to the Underdark to give their house the upper hand. But there aren't even enough Drow that we can conceivably scheme against each other, most houses have at most one truly active player, some not even that. For instance, if I wanted to scheme against House Armgo, I'd be forced to kill the only Drow who actually spends any time with me, not a really fun prospect.
By allowing Drow onto the surface you'll open up the RP doors to them, they won't have to rely on a two or three times a RL year RP event that won't pan out, they can make their own RP up there, which will make the entire race more interesting and make more people want a Drow character. Drow will be able to do new things that will give them stuff to talk about, meet new people, do new quests, adventure like anyone else. That is what this game is about to me, being able to do new things and have fun while playing the characters you love, and I love my Drow as much as, if not more than most surfacers, it honestly takes a lot of dedication to play someone close to 700 hours in the same place doing the same things.
3. the times they are a changing - With the new kismet system, we have already ensured that only players who are experienced are even making Drow characters. With the Drow alignment policy, all Drow are forced to be evil. Both of these systems should be more than enough to prevent Drow from being Drizzt wannabes. And even if some honestly stupid player ignores the policy and tries to play someone like Drizzt, that is a matter between them and the admins in the same way that it would be if a Dwarf didn't talk like a Dwarf, he isn't RPing his character properly, but you don't punish all the Dwarves for it by restricting them to Mithril Hall.
If we accept that Drow players are experienced enough to get drow by having enough kismet, and they're all restricted to playing as evil Drow, can't we say that we trust them enough to allow them onto the surface again? The reason I bring up all of these points is that I think it has become, if not forgotten, that it has become a non-issue and people have become so used to the idea of Drow being completely restricted that no one thinks twice about it, but for a Drow it's a terrible state of events. I am glad I never had a surface character before my Drow, and that I started lpaying with a friend who was down here with me almost constantly, because I can guarantee I would have become bored quickly like most other people do, realizing how much more interesting things are on the surface. Sure there will be Drow who are jerks who try to get around the RP policy, or who play Drow just to be jerks, but the same could be said of any race and any evil alignment. But Orcs aren't restricted to their orc town, and evil people aren't restricted to Zhentil Keep just because some of them might be jerks, and I don't think the Drow are being treated like individuals, they're being punished for the actions of a bunch of people in the past who were in a completely different situation. I love this MUSH, I wouldn't have spent so much time on it if I didn't, and I will always work to make the Underdark a really cool place. I am starting to get the hang of coding and I'd love to make a huge Underdark area comparable with a big surface area, encompassing other races and vast wilds, it's a big project, but I also love to just play the game, and I think the Drow could become a much more interesting part of the game than they are now, with benefits for everyone.
If you've read through all of this, congratulations... I hope you'll bear with me a little more. I just want to come up with a few quick counterarguments to reasons the Drow shouldn't be allowed back up.
1. Drow wouldn't want to go to the surface - One of the most exciting things in Drow society is the surface raid. There they get a chance to revenge themselves upon the Elves and to prove their mettle to Lloth. Lloth herself seeks to gain followers on the surace, and in 3rd edition Forgotten Realms, the Drow have sprung onto the surface like never before, colonizing the forests and moving into the world at large. To say drow don't want to go there has no real basis. A Drow's home is Menzoberranzan, but they leave it just like a human whose home is Waterdeep would leave it to adventure.
2. Drow would just kill stuff and PKill, or sit around the square at Waterdeep. - Drow on the surface would have to abide by strict rules, oging into cities where every guard would kill them would obviously be dangerous. other cities might be a bit more grudging in their acceptance, like Zhentil Keep. But Drow don't sit around their own version of the town square even in Menzoberranzan, I doubt theyd want to sit around with a bunch of humans and elves in a good city, they'd be putting their lives n the line. As for Drow just pkilling or attacking people, Drow abide by the same rules and restrctions everyone else does... including the fact that Pkill is a serious thing not to be taken lightly. I have met a dozen surfacers and only once did it evolve into combat, and that could have easily been avoided by either party. If you trust Rangers and druids in general to not sit around Waterdeep square, how can you not trust Drow? No one ever considers restricting those classes to stay in outdoor rooms only, but no one seems to think about Drow being restricted to Menzoberranzan being in essence the same thing.
If anyone has any reasons why, even with a kismet restriction and RP alignment policy, that Drow alone of all races/classes should be restricted to a few hundred rooms and a lifetime of mediocrity as characters compared to others I would love to hear them here so we can debate it, and if you don't believe that being a Drow is as hard as I have said, come make one and experience it yourself. I'm sure that anyone who plays an active Drow would agree with me. If the admins determine that Drow need more restriction on who can go to the surface, I'm sure we can come up with some other restrictions apart from an all-out ban. Perhaps a level restriction, or an IC organization that determines among the Drow themselves who is ready and a good enough example of the Drow to journey up there, but in the end, allowing Drow to get to the surface would be as simple as putting in a room with a portal and a level restriction on it, which could be done in about two minutes. I think what the Drow want more than anything else is just the ability to make the most of their characters like you have the chance to do on the surface. And that's the only point of this post, just to see if we can spur some discussion and see if that can happen.
First of all, when Drow were first created, a lot of them wanted to be just like the coolest Drow around, Drizzt, because he is the one everyone has read about, the noble Drow who rejected Lloth to be a good surfacer. This is obviously an interesting choice for people because everyone wants to play the character who is different, and who is more different than a Drow who is good... it opens up a lot of interesting RP. Unfortunately it also created a really bad situation for Drow where most were good and just walked around on the surface not dealing with all the prejudices that drow should have to deal with. There were a lot more good Drow than evil, and that didn't allow for the creation of an evil drow culture. Also from what I hear, the evil Drow on the surface might have been a bit too involved in the more aggressive and antagonistic aspects of Drow culture, killing too many things, attacking too many people, PKing too much. For all these very good reasons the Drow were dealt with in two ways. The first was that they were restricted to the Underdark completely, the second was that a Drow roleplay policy was enacted (help drow alignment policy) that ensures that ALL Drow are evil unless they make special application, and even then they'd still be in the Underdark with all the evil Drow.
This situation went on for some time, but over time people have played less and less with the Drow for a number of reasons. Soemtimes there are more Drow, sometimes there are less, it goes in waves with a few people getting interested and bringing their friends, but in the end, almost all give up active roleplay of their Drow after a few months because of a few reasons which I will go over here.
1. Menzoberranzan not built to be an island - When Menzo was first built the Drow had access to the surface, so it didn't need to provide everything. A Drow who wanted to train in other things could go to the surface to gain skills and spells. Now I have never had a surfacer that was more than a test so I never realized how limited a lot of us are down here. No this game is not all about spells and skills and such, it's about RP and I think the Drow who do play do a great job with it. But consider that character growth in skill is something that reflects their growing in reputation and prestige, there's a very good reason the characters even in FR books are generally very powerful with lots of different skills and abilities... it's more interesting.
For those of you who think this is a silly complaint, consider that a Priestess in the Underdark can gain practically no favour once they reach a powerful level. Imagine only being able to train about 1/3 of the spells in your list. Then imagine that even of those spells you can train, most of them you can never cast due to too low favor. The same goes for mages, even those who can go to the trouble of getting scrolls from the surface can never gain the components to cast them. Even warriors can't gain much in the way of skills and feats that can make them competitive with surfacers. It's easy to say that the game isn't about skills or spells when you don't have to deal with this situation, but anyone who doubts me, i welcome you to make a Drow character and try it yourselves.
In line with this also, there is a largely limited area of action in the Underdark. The entire Underdark area to which we are restricted is easily less than half the size of Waterdeep. There is much less diversity of equipment, much less training and much fewer quests to deal with. I have spoken to surfacers who have hundreds of glory points. As the most active and well-traveled current Drow I have 13 glory points, at least 3 of those I received solely due to good RP. That is barely half enough to purchase a feat or stat point. Again, feats and stats are not the point of the game, but is there really anyone who can say that who hasn't used those glory points for something themselves? That is why they exist, to be used and to reward characters for doing things.
Not wanting to just whine about a problem, I have coded and sent in an extensive addition to the Underdark and would love to code more whether we reach the surface or not. I even bought a laptop with the idea expressly in mind that I can code more Underdark areas during my hours of downtime at work, so let's not get into, "Well if you don't like it just change it yourself." because I have tried to.
2. Lack of RP opportunities in the Underdark - I have tried to arrange RP events in the Underdark, trade fairs, surface raids, most were minor successes, a few people showing up... a lot of them never materialized. During my year or so playing here, I think it is a year, there has not been one surface raid by the Drow, mostly because of a lack of interest from the Drow since so few generally log on. When a Drow raid is possible, people prefer to log on their surface alternates who they regularly play to help deal with the Drow raid than to log on their Drow they haven't played in months to raid the surface, I can't blame them. The inherent problem with this is that for most interesting RP to occur in the Underdark, it needs to be admin directed, and the admins have limited time and resources to help us, I understand that very well. That's the main reason I want to be allowed for us to help ourselves by allowing us to expand back out. I don't expect the admins to hang around waiting for us to be ready, to cancel their weekend plans in case three Drow log on and want to raid, but it seems that without a few Drow on, it's not worth much of anyone's time.
I love to Rp with other Drow, we scheme and talk. I write books from a Drow's point of view, I travel around, I do everything I can to make things interesting. Then you get to the point where you and all the Drow you know have been everywhere you can go. Where you can go and cycle the one area that you have been cycling since level 30 to make money. Where you literally have nothing to say to one another since nothing new has happened in months, that conversation just becomes a non-issue. Imagine being stuck on a desert island with someone for years... you'd end up running out of things to say pretty quickly, because even the things that do happen are not that interesting... a new Drow was around a few weeks ago, haven't seen him since. A Matron yelled at someone, these are literally the things Drow have to talk about to one another a lot of the time. I used to scheme with surfacers to start alliances between my House and them. Some were great about it, and liked just the Rp opportunity. Others were more pragmatic about it, because Drow have literally nothing of interest to offer surfacers. Our adamantine armor and weapons disintegrate. We're not particularly rich. I would love to get involved in intrigue on the surface... have Drow fighters supporting the whims of some mad cleric, have Drow bringing strange magic back down to the Underdark to give their house the upper hand. But there aren't even enough Drow that we can conceivably scheme against each other, most houses have at most one truly active player, some not even that. For instance, if I wanted to scheme against House Armgo, I'd be forced to kill the only Drow who actually spends any time with me, not a really fun prospect.
By allowing Drow onto the surface you'll open up the RP doors to them, they won't have to rely on a two or three times a RL year RP event that won't pan out, they can make their own RP up there, which will make the entire race more interesting and make more people want a Drow character. Drow will be able to do new things that will give them stuff to talk about, meet new people, do new quests, adventure like anyone else. That is what this game is about to me, being able to do new things and have fun while playing the characters you love, and I love my Drow as much as, if not more than most surfacers, it honestly takes a lot of dedication to play someone close to 700 hours in the same place doing the same things.
3. the times they are a changing - With the new kismet system, we have already ensured that only players who are experienced are even making Drow characters. With the Drow alignment policy, all Drow are forced to be evil. Both of these systems should be more than enough to prevent Drow from being Drizzt wannabes. And even if some honestly stupid player ignores the policy and tries to play someone like Drizzt, that is a matter between them and the admins in the same way that it would be if a Dwarf didn't talk like a Dwarf, he isn't RPing his character properly, but you don't punish all the Dwarves for it by restricting them to Mithril Hall.
If we accept that Drow players are experienced enough to get drow by having enough kismet, and they're all restricted to playing as evil Drow, can't we say that we trust them enough to allow them onto the surface again? The reason I bring up all of these points is that I think it has become, if not forgotten, that it has become a non-issue and people have become so used to the idea of Drow being completely restricted that no one thinks twice about it, but for a Drow it's a terrible state of events. I am glad I never had a surface character before my Drow, and that I started lpaying with a friend who was down here with me almost constantly, because I can guarantee I would have become bored quickly like most other people do, realizing how much more interesting things are on the surface. Sure there will be Drow who are jerks who try to get around the RP policy, or who play Drow just to be jerks, but the same could be said of any race and any evil alignment. But Orcs aren't restricted to their orc town, and evil people aren't restricted to Zhentil Keep just because some of them might be jerks, and I don't think the Drow are being treated like individuals, they're being punished for the actions of a bunch of people in the past who were in a completely different situation. I love this MUSH, I wouldn't have spent so much time on it if I didn't, and I will always work to make the Underdark a really cool place. I am starting to get the hang of coding and I'd love to make a huge Underdark area comparable with a big surface area, encompassing other races and vast wilds, it's a big project, but I also love to just play the game, and I think the Drow could become a much more interesting part of the game than they are now, with benefits for everyone.
If you've read through all of this, congratulations... I hope you'll bear with me a little more. I just want to come up with a few quick counterarguments to reasons the Drow shouldn't be allowed back up.
1. Drow wouldn't want to go to the surface - One of the most exciting things in Drow society is the surface raid. There they get a chance to revenge themselves upon the Elves and to prove their mettle to Lloth. Lloth herself seeks to gain followers on the surace, and in 3rd edition Forgotten Realms, the Drow have sprung onto the surface like never before, colonizing the forests and moving into the world at large. To say drow don't want to go there has no real basis. A Drow's home is Menzoberranzan, but they leave it just like a human whose home is Waterdeep would leave it to adventure.
2. Drow would just kill stuff and PKill, or sit around the square at Waterdeep. - Drow on the surface would have to abide by strict rules, oging into cities where every guard would kill them would obviously be dangerous. other cities might be a bit more grudging in their acceptance, like Zhentil Keep. But Drow don't sit around their own version of the town square even in Menzoberranzan, I doubt theyd want to sit around with a bunch of humans and elves in a good city, they'd be putting their lives n the line. As for Drow just pkilling or attacking people, Drow abide by the same rules and restrctions everyone else does... including the fact that Pkill is a serious thing not to be taken lightly. I have met a dozen surfacers and only once did it evolve into combat, and that could have easily been avoided by either party. If you trust Rangers and druids in general to not sit around Waterdeep square, how can you not trust Drow? No one ever considers restricting those classes to stay in outdoor rooms only, but no one seems to think about Drow being restricted to Menzoberranzan being in essence the same thing.
If anyone has any reasons why, even with a kismet restriction and RP alignment policy, that Drow alone of all races/classes should be restricted to a few hundred rooms and a lifetime of mediocrity as characters compared to others I would love to hear them here so we can debate it, and if you don't believe that being a Drow is as hard as I have said, come make one and experience it yourself. I'm sure that anyone who plays an active Drow would agree with me. If the admins determine that Drow need more restriction on who can go to the surface, I'm sure we can come up with some other restrictions apart from an all-out ban. Perhaps a level restriction, or an IC organization that determines among the Drow themselves who is ready and a good enough example of the Drow to journey up there, but in the end, allowing Drow to get to the surface would be as simple as putting in a room with a portal and a level restriction on it, which could be done in about two minutes. I think what the Drow want more than anything else is just the ability to make the most of their characters like you have the chance to do on the surface. And that's the only point of this post, just to see if we can spur some discussion and see if that can happen.