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Alright. I keep seeing some people (nah, I won't call them elven rp snobs just yet) saying that Elves have that special and intimate bound and relation with magic.

That, to me, just sounds like poorly constructed Elven propaganda.

What explains/justifies/concretizes this "special and intimate link with magic?

I mean... I understand that "Pechs have a special and intimate link with rock and earth". The explanation/justification/concretization is that: they live in it, they can communicate with rocks and earth, they have direct links to the elemental plane of Earth, and so on. The claim is backed up by "concrete" things.

But what can back up the "intimate relation between elves and magic"? Elves have no special magical ability. They aren't better wizards or sorcerers than other races. They knew how to create mythals, but then again, they have thousands of years to study magic, and other races could use epic/so-called "10th level" spells before too (before Mystra-I ruled them out).

So... convince me if you can that it's not just Elven propaganda without anything backing up the claim.

Its an old carry over from 2ed which was the reason why elves favoured class was magic users. Cant quite give you the exact logic behind it, but I do remember reading in the guidebook to elves or something of the sort. I dont specifically care much for it with any of my elven characters.

I personally have no elven alt that is a spellcaster. But as I read in many books based on Forgotten Realms, it is told that elves are a part of magic, so they do not use magic like other races(In Elves of Evermeet book). And they can have magic circles, quite different than how others(humans, gnomes, half-elves etc.) use the magic. As I remember correctly, elves are the oldest race in Faerun, after the dragons, and they established their civilizations after they drove the dragons away. That magic is something with the creation, and I am sure someone else can tell it better than me. Alas,high elven magic is something used very rarely now, and it is strictly secret to other races, and even for an elf, there required to be an age limit(300 years old) and being already a master mage(The Mythal Series). So for now, it would be fair to think that elves might have a special gift for wizardy(having talents that is, nothing about being snob ), but being a special mage, learning high elven magic is totally a different thing. As I don't have a magician elf, I haven't read about it alot, but this is the first thing came to my mind.

And yes. Most elves in FR setting is snob. But it does not mean all are. Or it doesn't mean the roleplayers are snob too..Just you can roleplay in that way, if your character in the game requires to. I don't agree your point on how elven roleplayers act snobbish, and expect others to know about elven customs as well. Personally, I never expect something from another PC who roleplays something other than elf. But for elves, due to their link to other elves of their community or how they are raised, ICly yes, I would expect some elven roleplay fitting to their characters. In my opinion, it is not different than a magic-lover dwarf. I believe, in a roleplay based mud, you should at least have a look at internet, where is full of resources concerning FR setting. It is the same for elves, or any other race you decide to roleplay. And it is not a bad thing. Altough you don't like snob elves, Dalvyn, it doesn't mean that they don't exist

If elves used another magic, different from what other races use, they would not have been cut from magic during hte Time of Troubles. Yet, as far as I know, they were. Similarly, they still can't cast in areas of dead magic, and their spells are still perturbated in wild magic areas.

As for High Elven Magic, they are just epic/"10th level" spells kept more or less secret by elves... creation of a mythal, and so on. Just like other epic/"10th level" spells, they do not work anymore since Mystra-I ruled them off after Karsus's Folly.

So for now, it would be fair to think that elves might have a special gift for wizardy

I don't agree, and that's the whole point of my question. What I'm asking is WHAT backs up this claim? If there is a "special gift", which one is it? Elves still have to study magic like other races, they still have to memorize like wizards of other races... I see no "special racial gift" in there.

My question is "What concrete fact back up the claim to have a special gift?"... or rather, is there any reason for this claim, or is it just some Elven propaganda?

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As a side note, I have no problem with ICly snobbish elves. My problem lies more with OOCly snobbish elven roleplayers. And with the fact that it seems to become a trend on the mud, where we are seeing a large percentage of the PC population being elven followers of uncoded deities, just because some people think it's "cool" to play an elf. I'll buy a well-played average human with an interesting background and some personality twists over any special elf worshiping a semi-obscure deity any day and being "just yet another elf". But that's not really the topic of this thread.

I believe there are quite a lot of references to this special link, although I would accept that the elves were most definitely affected by the Time of Troubles, as well as dead magic and wild magic areas. But then, even during the Time of Troubles, the guidance of the Weave was gone, but the Weave itself remained. I think it would be interesting to see if the elves died, if the Weave itself was destroyed.

Anyway:

From “Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves”

To elves, magic is less a power or force to manipulate and more an energy source and something that permeates their entire existence. To separate elves from their magic is to pull a fish from water or rob a scholar of his ability to read. To an elf, magic is as everpresent as life itself, and the use of it in common spells as well as High Magic is almost as much a religious experience as communing with the Seldarine. Perhaps the elves. Affinity for magic helps explain their longevity and other special abilities, though the elves prefer not to comment.

Elves understand the Weave, the mystical balance of forces and energies that govern magic on Toril, and even those elves whose preferences lie with swords can feel it surrounding them at all times.

Also from the same book:

Magic is as natural as thing to the elves as water, air, and the earth below.

Plus various other instances throughout that resource. Also, Evermeet: Isle of the Elves (a very good read) tells tales of the special link many elves have to magic. Unfortunately, I haven’t got that book at the moment, or I would let people know.

In relation to High Magic, it is not simply a 10th level spell. It is given that title for the sake of game mechanics, but story-wise, (also found in Empire of the Elves) High Magic still continues after Mystra-2 banned 10th level magic. In Evermeet: Isle of the Elves, High Magic is still used, though by the end of the book there are some references to the “death of High Magic” with the destruction of the towers of the wizards. However, in a recent trilogy about the elves which I have not yet had the chance to purchase, High Magic is again mentioned.

So, personally, I have always roleplayed my character as having that special link to the Weave. She has never said she was a better caster for it, but personally, I feel the examples back up this point of view.

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On a side note, as one of those OOCly “elite” elven players, I would just like to defend my position, if I might. I freely admit I am quite elite, because personally, like we like to have dwarves, orcs and drow acting in the same way, I feel it adds to the atmosphere to have elves acting with at least some elven characteristics. Yeah, feel free to make your sun elf like humans, but at least let him have some idea of tradition/reverie, etc. Anything else is just unrealistic.

Now, my character IC is a purist, believing in all the traditions, etc. OOCly, I am not, but there are some limits to this. It is a fact that every elf knows certain things. I personally don’t feel it is elitist to hope that other people who have chosen to roleplay an elf should know those things. There isn’t a cost for moon elves in kismet, fine. Moon elves are known to be the most “human” of the elves, anyway. But there is a kismet cost for sun elves, and the others. If we don’t in the game expect elves to be roleplayed (I won’t say correctly) with at least some accordance to how elves act, then why have a kismet cost at all? If every person is able to roleplay a sun elf as just your normal human, why is that anything special any more?

Sorry, I agree with mostly everything you ever say on these forums, Dalvyn, but not this particular bit. If any player has been rude or obnoxious OOC to another person because of their roleplay, that needs to be dealt with. But I don’t think elven players who make an effort to try to find new bits out and slip it into roleplay, should be criticised. After all, if a dwarf can’t walk into a Market Square and insult a moon elf, and have the moon elf respond about etc… etc… where does the RP between races, take place? If we aren’t even expected to make roleplaying an elf, or a dwarf, etc, even remotely resembling that race, then we should just be limited to making humans. Part of the fun I have personally had here, is building my elven character, slowly exploring each of her prejudices. I have really enjoyed that, and the discussions involved with other characters as a result.

No hostility at all is meant here. I just feel quite strongly, that elven players are able to roleplay their characters with as much gusto as they want, and also to feel disappointed if other elven characters are so completely not elven, they may as well be human. i.e, the elf having no knowledge of reverie. Maybe I'm not actually elitist, because personally I still feel that that is the only piece of knowledge elves cannot NOT no. Anything else, is up to the player.

I hope some of that made sense.

~Ol

Ok... that kind of exemplifies what I was talking about.

The excerpts you mentionned all go like "yadda yadda yadda special link yadda yadda because, you know, ... special link! ... yadda yadda ... and they would die without magic because... SPECIAL LINK! ... yadda yadda ... oh, and ... special link...". They say, four or five times, that elves have a special link with magic, but never do they give even one example backing up this claim.

I'm not saying it a brusque way or anything (well, perhaps in a brusque way, but not with the intention to offense). But the "Elves have a special relation to magic" needs some facts to back it up, or some sort of explanation. This claim in itself does not mean anything and can only be considered as "true" if some explanation is given. Even writing it 1000 times, or repeating it 1000 times (perhaps with slightly different words) does not make it true and does not "justify" it.

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Hello? Did you read what I wrote above?

People can roleplay their elves as pedantic and haughty and whatnot if they want - I do not care. Elves should be played as elven, and not as humans with pointed ears - I agree with that too.

What I do not like is snobbish elf roleplayer (OOCly snobbish or haughty), those who go around sprouting a few words in what they consider to be elven (while elven is the coded language, someone who is GM at elven should understand elves, but they won't if elves start using words coming from I'm-not-too-sure-where). I do not like either players who consider themselves superior because of their knowledge of some obscure elven facts and make other feel how OOCly superior they are.

And, to be honest, I'm quite enjoying this thread. It is a very very simple question, actually: "What is this special link elves fuss about exactly?". And yet, even though several players love to say this claim again and again in game, I have not yet any satisfying answer

On the example then, of what the special link exactly is... can I use politicians' trump card: "I'll get back to you?" *is now on a mission, to prove what it is* I can't find it now, but I am -sure- there was something somewhere, about it. So, I will post when I find it.

_

On the other front, I apologise. I believe I misunderstood what you were implying. Yes, I quite agree about constantly slipping in random bits of elven, everywhere. And I'm glad you agree that pointy-eared humans are bad. So, yes: less elitism, and more RPing. *agrees*

~Ol

The notion of Elven High Magic and the special relationship that Elves have with the Weave is one that is mentioned in many places, but as Dalvyn rightly points out there is a lack of substantial detail.

Magic of Faerun eludes to it, a bare two paragaphs though. Elves of Evermeet and Cormanthyr : Empire of the Elves expound upon it, but give no concrete stats.

Perhaps it is meant to be this way, it is something in the past that marked the pinnacle of elven achievement but now exists as little more than myth or the dream of scholars.

Equally, perhaps the writers of Cormanthyr and other source books just never got around to fully fledging it out before the campaign moved on. Recent books such as Lost Empires certainly dont seem inclined to revive it.

I think it can be a valid roleplay for elves to harp on about their special relationship to the Weave and the glories of Elven Magic - so long as they are prepared for the obvious counterpoint from non-Elven mages. "So, show me this great power then...."

The High Magic used to create those magical shields around Myth Drannor or to raise towers and cities up from the ground were achieved by great numbers of Elves working in unison. Over long years of learning the Weave became something that they could sense and mould and manipulate.

I don't believe that there is anything innate about that ability though, just the fact that elves had a great number of years in which to learn it and a stable art and lore driven society that allowed them to do so without distraction.

Corellon Larethian is the God of Elven Magic, no dispute there as it is in most of the canon source books. However, it should be noted that he does not control the Weave, which Mystra provides, he merely oversees Elven High Magic.

In summary, roleplay Elven magical superiority 'til the cows come home, but don't be surprised if Mystra's High Priest calls you on that claim.

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OOC Elven snobbery.... hmmm, probably not giving anything away to say that this has always been one of your bugbears Dalvyn

I know we've had discussions about it and I've never won the argument, but perhaps it isn't one that is there to be won by either point of view.

For me, use of elven class titles and elven words is fine if they are canon. Occasional use of them during roleplay can be a nice way to flavour a conversation or give other characters something to poke fun about.

The elven race names such as Teu'Tel'Quessir, Sy'Tel'Quessir etc or referring to non elves as N'Tel'Quess shouldn't be a problem. Players may join the game not knowing that there are Sun Elves, Moon Elves, Wood Elves and Wild Elves either.

Where the problem lies I think is that the same reference sites that have all of the canon elven racial notes also (most times) have the elven to common dictionaries and other snobby elements that some players might use to beat novices about the head with. (Please note, I am not referring to anyone in particular there)

I do though think that the assertion that 'I am GM in Elven so if I can't understand the word you just used it can't be proper Elven' is flawed.
I have spoken English all my life but I regularly come across words I didnt know until they were spoken to me and/or I read them and looked up their meaning.

I play an elf; by description a wild elf and by temperament someone who despises sun elf snobbery and all that harking for the past. That is how I ICly handle the OOC snobbery.

However, I struggle on the mud with those players suffering the 'pointy eared human' syndrome. I think that using canon references is not wrong or snobbish if it is done to set apart elven roleplay and help those players play their characters more fluently.

It is wrong to do it to create clever titles (and this applies to players of drow as well as elves sometimes) that no-one but you and a few other well-read players understand. It is wrong to do it to isolate other players or to claim that this makes you a better roleplayer.

As with my rider above on Elven High Magic, I will continue to use elven terms if I think it is useful and if they are things that campaign books and D&D canon references have introduced... but I will do so in the full knowledge that some players will dislike it and poke fun at me for it

Of course, I may have to change my signature on here to this now...



Sindava

Warrior priest of Corellon
Bane of the Drow

Don't talk about what you've done or are going to do... Do it and let it speak for itself

Before I begin, let me say that I have no elven characters, and my knowledge on elves is severely lacking. I never know what it means when I see on the who list, "Bob, Sindhar y en Calesh Corellon" or whatever and it's Greek to me. =P

That being said, maybe it's an "ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country" deal, except maybe reversed. =P I've heard it said that elves skipped all evolutionary stages, having been created by magic.(Correct me if I'm wrong) Also, someone said above that elves' long lifespan may be linked to the Weave. Maybe it's not what they(Elves) can do for their country(The Weave), by casting big bang boom spells and come out of their mommas casting cantrips, but rather what their country can do for them, IE the Weave gives them long life spans and, I don't know, other elven perks.

And that's their "special link" to the Weave and magic... Maybe. Just a thought!

Right. The "Bob, Sindhar y en Calesh Corellon" is one of the bad things I talked about.

They do not add anything to the roleplay - the same could be said in proper English. The only thing they do is alienate people who are not "in the know".

And I do not buy the "Even as a GM, there might still be words you do not know" explanation either. I agree that it is true - as a French native speaker, there are words in French that I do not know; and I guess that this is true for each of us - but this is only valid for uncommon words, or words specific to an area. Here, we are talking of words that mean "moon elf", "the elven people", "the non-elves", and so on. Those are words that all beginners in Elven would know.

You don't see dwarves use fake words in Dethek and what not - no matter how official they might be - so I do not see any reason for elves to do that. Similarly, a character from Kara-Tur would not be allowed to speak in Japanese or Chinese on the game.

As far as I understand, elves affinity for magic is the same as a unicorns affinity for magic. They're innately magical creatures. Clearly they are no longer as magical some of the other "magical" creatures - but that blood still runs through them...not unlike tieflings (if all from the bloodline were "infected" by the taint). Just like tieflings (who could be scores of generations removed from anything considered unnatural) have an affinity for embracing evil, elves have an affinity for embracing magic. How the elves developed this affinity was touched on by Dalvyn, and is almost more ic folklore than ooc fact...clearly it's assumedly diminished from the elves heyday, but an affinity still remains.

Mechanically - it's favored class, immunity, and a save bonus

Theme wise in Faerun - Elves weave magic like Dwarves craft stone and gnomes see through illusions. It's just natural for them. It doesn't make them any better, inherently, at casting spells than an ambitious human...because that human or any other mage had to work harder to attain his spells and harness the weave through magical formula.

When it comes to magic, Elves are the classic case of gifted over skilled. The sourcebooks that proclaim elves breathe magic and sense it all around them, are just creative ways of describing their affinal history with magic. PC elves can't hold items and express whether or not it's magical...and technically they couldn't inherently sense a magical dead zone either - but that'd certainly be more up to DM interpretation.

Also historically, the Elven affinity for magic has been a downfall to their arcane prowess. While it creates many, many mages - the ease in which magic comes to the race and their magically enhanced lifespans is little motivation for new, creative, and obviously dangerous magical theory. The same elven mage who boasts of his heritage with magic...would likely also realize, and curse his race, for their aloof and solely traditional take on the art. They don't jump in and take risks with magical theory - when what you're wagering is a near eternity of experiences, a wisdom over 6 pushes you away from even considering working beyond your means or paradigm.

So yes, elves are inherently magical, and it is supported by source material...but they don't get any significant magical bonuses because the cultural results of such affinity has created a ridiculously conservative, unprogressive, approach at the art.

The history of modern magic isn't a secret of any kind in faerun. If an elf begins boasting his race's magical prowess without any reason, simply ask if that mage has adopted the now common practice of metamagic - created by a dyslexic human way past his prime. A traditionalist elven mage, would frown on such short cuts.

In a simple analogy, Elves are the barbarians of magic. All gift, no skill.

I was just going to say, and I really hope this doesn't sound like I'm trying to affront anybody, but I wanted to say that I think it is good for players who play elves to know their stuff and use it in their RP, even if some other characters might not be able to understand it. It sort of adds to their being a separate culture. I know when I first started playing here I had no idea about anything elven (or anything Forgotten Realms at that), and people would talk about elven things that I didn't understand. It made me feel alienated, but in a good way...because my character was human and was supposed to be slightly alienated from elves. I might ramble and lose my point...but I was just trying to say that people who RP elves well might occasionally reference parts of elven culture that would lose outsiders, because that's what elves do.

Before I move on, I will make an explanation/apology. I've never played table-top and the only manual I have is the ranger's guidebook. I get most of my information on elves from reading novels and reading things on the internet, but I have done my research.

I will also say that even in speaking Common in some of the novels, elves tend to throw in words like "Tel'Quessir" and "N'Tel'Quessir" (meaning "the People" and "not-people" respectfully) because it is something that cannot be exactly translated into common, and holds a deeper meaning in elven. But anyways, that's the point I wanted to make and I hope it came out clearly and without sounding offensive somewhere in all this. Thanks!

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Oh, and I wanted to add that I can't really say much on the "elven magic" original topic because I don't have a better explanation than the ones offered above. I've always read that in novels like Evermeet and the like, so I just accepted it and moved on. Never really looked for an explanation...cause I've been so used to Tolkien and things like that all my life where elves are just considered to be mysterious and magical.

Whether there is a word for it or not, it's an elven word - and plenty of characters know elven well enough to understand "the people"....but then not understand a word OOC when IC the character understands it.

That's the problem. Mechanically, the characters know what Tel'quessir means...but the player doesn't. It isn't something like referencing obscure faerun events - there isn't a skill to represent the character knowing of that specific event. So using Tel'quessir when speaking common or even worse, elven, creates a situation where players feel like they either need to ask ooc or just ignore...which is frustrating, especially if the person you ask say something like "if you don't know, you don't know...find out IC". The paradox surrounding that explaination drives me near death

Dalvyn wrote:Right. The "Bob, Sindhar y en Calesh Corellon" is one of the bad things I talked about.

Actually, you're mixing those who use elven for titles with Calishites who use Alzhedo for their titles

The Calishite tongue, of course, comes from the Calimport and Shining Sea supplements

On that note, I'll say just a couple of things. For one, anybody who is going to RP an elf and has done any looking into the matter at all will probably at least know the words "Tel'Quessir" and "N'Tel'Quessir." Those things are readily referenced in almost anything on Faerun's elves that I've seen.

Also, if someone is confused about that and has to ask OOC, I would think it best probably to tell them (if their character was an elf and would know) and move on quickly.

Third, (and I am not bilingual so don't hold me to this) but I've heard it said that in languages like Spanish there are certain words that do not exactly translate into English...so I don't see why that wouldn't be true of the elven language. "N'Tel'Quessir" to an elf means "not-people" but the idea of what it means is not accurately portrayed if someone just said "not-people."

And once again, I'm enjoying this discussion and not trying to be argumentative, but I'm just trying to take up for something I always saw as good RP, and that always intrigued me about Forgotten Realms and Forgotten Kingdom even when I was a new player and had just started learning about Forgotten Realms a few weeks earlier.

While that is true with spanish, and very likely true with elven...if a character knows elven, the character knows what that word means. It's an elven word...and they speak elven. A player can't decide whether or not another character who speaks elven knows a very common elven word...they mechanically know it.

So it'd be forcing anyone who speaks elven at all to know IC and not know OOC. That's a problem - one that frustrates players, not characters.

Dugald wrote:Whether there is a word for it or not, it's an elven word - and plenty of characters know elven well enough to understand "the people"....but then not understand a word OOC when IC the character understands it.

That's the problem. Mechanically, the characters know what Tel'quessir means...but the player doesn't. It isn't something like referencing obscure faerun events - there isn't a skill to represent the character knowing of that specific event. So using Tel'quessir when speaking common or even worse, elven, creates a situation where players feel like they either need to ask ooc or just ignore...which is frustrating, especially if the person you ask say something like "if you don't know, you don't know...find out IC". The paradox surrounding that explaination drives me near death

Okay... so here's a good illustration to separate OOC snobbery from IC snobbery regarding RP:

I'm a person, RPing an elf, and I use the word TelQuess. Another player, new to elf RP, asks, OOC, "What is TelQuess?" or I do some elven mannerism or mention things like reverie, or aryvandor, and said newbiew player acts clueless...

A good RPer will OOCly, explain the word or the action to the other player, in a way that is constructive and reinforces his own RP. The new players RP is enhanced, he can RP a non-human race with additional confidence, and it yields good results.

OR

I can turn my nose up at said newbie player, IC/OOCly make some scathing comment (you know what IC/OOC is, one of those, I'm saying this IC, but you understand I'm really meaning it OOCly, statements), or even worse, make efforts to shun even RPing with said player's character because they don't live up to my standard. The result? Poor morale on the part of the new player, resentment, OOC tension and all other kinds of crap we don't need on the MUD.

On the other hand...

I have a character who is Sembian, a human... I researched the Sembian culture before I started RPing him. My wife plays a Calishite human, she researched Calimshan extensively before making and playing her. The same goes for her Moonshae Northman human, and my Yuirwood Halfelf. It's all part of forming their backstories, their mannerisms, the way they will act in certain settings, circumstances, etc...

If you were to make a human, you can get away with "just" being human to a point. But, if you say "I'm from Calimport/Sembia/etc" and you know nothing about said area, RP nothing like someone from said area... I'm going to be offended, just as much as if you make an elf and don't understand the art of RPing elven, and have no desire to.

Guess that makes me an RP snob, in general

Okay.. I have only one interjection which will most likely just incite .. but I have been trying to follow quietly and feel forced to comment. >.<

Why is it... that we ENFORCE Dwarven culture and language and encourage those PCs playing dwarves to go full out with their RP and YET....
It seems... from what I see here...
that those who simply do the same with their Elven characters are being lambasted and labled "Elven Snobs???"

I have an elf... she is NOT a pointy eared human...and I use a few (VERY FEW) elven words to enrich my RP. If someone is clueless... I am MORE than willing to 'splain them either OOCly or ICLy if they enquire or seem lost in anyway. I am NOT an "elven Snob" but, I think.. if you are going to make an ELF you better at least know SOMETHING about them ??? Making a clueless, pointy-eared human.... would be like a Dwarf not having a clue what Dwarves do culturally.
People would FLAME any PC who played a Dwarf who liked magic, didn't mine and spoke common with no accent! Why should we not expect Elves to RP culturally appropriately?

I HAVE encountered a few "Over the top" elven snobs ICly as my Elf and as my human... and it is annoying I admit... but I generally react ICly and it makes for interesting RP lol

I say, if we have to put up ( yeah... I am not fond of the whole dwarven snob thing!)with being completely unable to communicate with Dwarves who all use their *own* form if dwarven dialect even when speaking Dwarven... so that even if you GM Dwarven you are still like "Uhhhhh... what did you say?" ...then why can't people cut the elves who *try* by using a few words like Tel'Quessir" A tiny break before Slapping on the elven snob lable.

In the event that you think I am just being obnoxious...I will leave you with a perfectly acceptable sentence to use if you are an FK dwarf speaking to anyone ICly... ( Dwarven resource? the post made by Mystra in the dwarven RP forum) If you do not understand it... Please feel free to visit that part of this very forum

Thet Jargh wiz blootered n' manky, ae ah telt th' zander tae beh guan tae th' cludgie.

(note: if a Dwarf came up to me Icly and I had GMed Dwarven... and he said this in common... I would still not understand him. Yet some would split hairs for me using Tel'Quess in a sentence? o.O )

Sorry... it upsets me greatly that there seems a bit of a double standard here

"The Banna"
AKA Aelfwynne

Note: edited to correct *some* of the horrible grammar and typos