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So far as the old race selection went, only 2 of them had no real use for thieves, Drow and Orcs. Though there would be a need for such a trade in those societies, the guilds charaterisics would need to be modified to a more helpfull role. In step the scout, less a thief and more a fighter, yet not as potent as the warriors in melee and with a few select ranger skills to boot. Giving up the traits of a city thief(ie steal, ect) to those of the scout.(ie track, ect)

Drow -
Since they reside in the earth and seldom tend to venter elsewhere, have there skills modified to work only in undergroud/underdark/inside areas. Much like a ranger cant sneak and hide in a city or a thief outside.

Orcs -
Since the only place an orc can call home as of the moment is the Village(maybe ZK too) modifing the skills to work like that of a ranger would be better.( ie sneak/track/hide work only outside)

Half-orcs -
Eventually, when they make thier home Skullport the same udergroud restrictions of the drow would apply.


Basically its the same class except for (A)the name change from thief to scout, (B)the pluse/minus of a skill or two, and (C)race specific conditions.

(A) - much like the barbarians vs fighters, basically the same guild just that the names changed and so forth on the players score card and what ever else.

(B) - I don't have a thief PC so I don't exactly know all the skills given to them so I can't give a detailed referance of which ones should be dropped but steal is #1. Added though, track would be definatly. Also to be taken in mind that this is to be race specific, Orcs are to would not care for the subtleties of a backstab nor are they smart enough to read off scrolls...

(C) - Since these guilds are for tow specific races, barring outsiders from joining and preventing their flock from joining outside the giuld is prudent. So only Drow can joint the Menzo/skullport chapter and they can't join the thieves guild in ZK, even if they're still a rouge. Much like a Halfling can't become a bard. And sthe skills are race modified, SO they only work in the environments of that race. This is to negate would be Drittz wannabees or the abuse of code.


A work in progress, will add to with clairity...

No quite the contrary, I'm trying to get the class established in those two races. As far as skills track is the only one I can think of. As to being quasi rangers? Malarites have more ranger like than what I'm suggesting. This is a typical thief just modified. No magic(esp for orcs); No shapchange; No pathfinding; No slice; and maybe with the lose of a few thief skills(ie no need/use in their society) and an addition or two from the warrior cast (esp for orcs) to make up the loss, you have a scout. And surely enough a ranger is a scout but a scout is no ranger. Think of the curent scout mobs around Menzo or a vanguard for the orc hoard. Surely they know how to track, sneak/hide just to stay safe and get close to an enemy. But these guilds I'm proposing have major limitations to them too, especially for the drow. A ranger has sneak/hide/track and can use them all over except city areas. A drow scout would be limited to the underdark and maybe just the underdark and not in the cities like Menzo. As of right now an orc can follow Malar and have himself an evil ranger less the spells and in no way am I suggesting anything remotely like that. I am suggesting though is a revamp of the guild for those two races and another way to RP.

As a way to limit the Orc scouting abilities, have tracking be usable only with a dog(maybe cat anf bird too) that way if they want to track they need a mob to do it for them. ie Using the skill through the mob. And If they want to sneak/hide they have to leave the pet/mount some where else. ie You can't hide and sneak very well with something pointing you out every time you move. That would separate them even more from Rangers. Likely candidates would be an Orcs Warg mount, a pet wolf, a cave bear mount, a pet grizzly.

But remenber, have the skills set by the race or home town. So dows can only sneak/hide/traick in the underdark and orc can only track with a specific mob(or other restrictions) so to keep the ranger cast happy. And I still doubt steal would come in handy or even used in those two societies. Also, I can't see an orc sneaking up and back stabing someone, first their stench would give them away and second. their race and ideals and mor brute like than wily. Drows though, of course, Lloth portfolio raigns over assasins(or so I read somewhere) so b-stab and its associated fighting skill would work.

As far as the prestige class goes, Would you still mage a rouge? or is this quest training availabe to the other classes making the scout/rouge nout needed? eg all drow getting sneak/hide/infravision not matter class.
Or could an actual area gild be set up so all drow get the basic pacage but rouges get the addition training. ie the temple trainers, they each will teach you but according to class you can only train certain things.