Skills Alla Levels

[Urival]

Now i know this is a radical idea, but what about the raising exp needed to level and lowering the skill advance system. Perhaps it would have to be implemented in steps to weed out the old charicters (maybe over a few years even). But wouldnt it be nice if lvl 50 was a rare and hard thing to achieve, but second attack was common over any decent adventurer? Ive always thought a slower level sytem was better for RP, and with the skill system already here it makes it a dream come true. This way the 100 hours that seperate a 17th lvl fihter and a 25th lvl fighter may be the ability to bash and/or another attack. I beleave this sets shorter, but more intresting goals and makes the charicter more enjoyable to play. Exp seems so endless and boring, while, when you see "you have learned from your attempt at what ever and learned from your progress" Its a very exiting thing. Now this causes a problem with alot of players reaching GM at skills like second attack or cure light wounds very quickly, but maybe make it easier to master a skill but WAY!!! harder to GM a skill. I think this would develop more steps to charicters and there for make them more fun to play in situations where a few levels (via a few skills or spells) could make all the differnce in a battle, or rp situation.

Just a lil note
ryanC

[Bragbub]

Instead of nerfing ( raising the requirements ) of gaining levels or skills could there be a way to raise the bar on what is considered the best? I know that High Priests and the like can reach level 51... but is there a way you can make it so that all characters can get to... lets say level 55? The High Priests to an even higher lever ( and of course the deities still having the highest levels ). Or would all of this be too complicated to code now?

Or how about using a check to see how many hours you have logged your character to see how quickly he/she gains in levels and skills?

I'm not sure if this is IC ( I won't use character names, just a raw example ): I have a character with nearly 650 hours, but he's not what would be considered one of the "old school" characters. He fought a character with around 200 hours logged in but was an "old school" character. This character still beat mine pretty badly.... So could there be any bonuses for characters with more hours logged in? Or penalties for "power leveling" your character? Sorry the post got this long

[Andreas]

I'm all for slowing down the rate at which a character can level. Like Urival said, I take MUCH more personal satisfaction in seeing a skill/spell/trade improve over getting levels.

I created Andreas in March of 2002. April 24, 2003 is when I finally leveled him to 50th level. This was a roleplay choice for me. I think from September 2002 through December 2002 I left him at 40th level then slowly got a level here or a level there whenever it seemed like a good moment. This is not to say that he wasn't out there getting experience, I just didn't bother to train his level when he had enough to advance.

It is a bit... hmmm... disappointing??... frustrating??... well, not really sure how I'd put it... but to see a relatively new character levelled up to 50th level in just a few days? I think you get the general picture. When I first started playing here I was just floored by how easy it was to level a character. I feel there really does need to be more of an experience gap between levels, especially higher levels.

Not entirely sure about the EXP for RP bit, as the Imms are not always around or, more specifically, watching every single person when they happen to be deeply involved in RP. And at certain times during the day, there's just no one around! Spent about an hour on yesterday morning where I was the only player... talk about your ghost town...

What about an approval system? Urival and a few others here know exactly what I'm talking about *wink* from another MUD. Once a character reaches a certain level, they have to write an approval which is basically an essay about what they've done, what their goals are and how they plan to attain them. There's a public side of the approval that the players see and vote on and a private side that only the Imms can see and vote on. It works on a bell curve with neutral votes discounted and negatives detracting from the positives but a character must have a minimum score (say 80%) to pass and be allowed to continue to level. Imm votes carry more weight than player votes. What does all this accomplish? If a PC power levels without bothering to interact with other characters, they won't get enough positive votes because not enough people have roleplayed with them. Unfortunately, this system works best when characters are grouped into accounts by player.

[Talos]

I imagine this is also a nightmare to code, but I've seen on some other muds where the more of a given mob you kill, the less xp you get for it, eventually dwindling to nothing. This would reduce the 'xp farm' nature of some areas, and require people to vary their haunts a bit more.
Another tactic is to arrange it that you get less and less xp the higher level you are over the mob you kill.

This last would, I think, create a sort of exponential increase in leveling difficulty as fewer and fewer higher level mobs are available. Its also probably easier to code than the first.

[Andreas]

I don't really see the need for more levels in the game, just slowing down the rate at which PCs can level.

ROFL... just read the help twink file! LOL

*cough* Ahem... anyway... another idea I just had was making it so that a PC has to have a certain number of hours to advance at certain levels. For example, to advance to 20th level, a PC must have at least 200 hours... for 30th: 400 hours... 40th: 800 hours and 50th: 1500 hours. I'm not saying these are hard and fast numbers to use, but if a PC power levels to 19th and has only 25 hours of play, they'll have to spend 175 hours actually ROLEPLAYING to be eligible for further advancement.

Maybe even some sort of flag/notification to the Imms that so-and-so has hit 19th level, has 25 hours and is awaiting approval to advance? That way people can't "sneak" around the system by simply logging on and idling. When they're flagged, the Imms can give them a little extra attention to see if they're actually roleplaying or just veggin' an' killin' stuffs.

[Aklen]

I am a firm believer that level 50, level 40, hell even level 20, should be far harder to achieve, with roleplaying playing a far larger aspect in leveling. While there aren't many imms available to watch RP, I think that if members of the staff that had more time than others volunteered to monitor RPs of various players that they notice roleplaying frequently, it'd be nice. Also, a way to regulate the experience one could gain would certainly help. As I'm sure you all know, our level system does not correspond to the leveling system in 3rd Edition D&D, in that Elminster, who is considered almost a demi-god, is only around level 43. His spells are massively powerful, not to mention his deity-given abilities.

And yet, we have level 50 wizards with no-where near the strength that he does. Of course, that makes sense-- They don't have the abilities. But even a level 20 Manshoon (he's 20 or 21 in FR, I can't remember) is considered a very very powerful wizard. He does not follow a deity or some such, but at level 20, he is considered one of the most powerful wizards on Faerun. Thats because few characters ever get above level 20.

Of course, we couldn't adapt the system well, as none of the 50's would take kindly to having their levels cut down. However, as it is now, I sometimes feel that characters used mostly for roleplay are at a disadvantage to those not in some situations... It just feels like perhaps we should discourage pure leveling to the extent that people seek out roleplay for the fun, as well as for the ability to gain experience from it.

But then again, having an Immortal staff that has one of its main jobs as "rewarding roleplay" would probably require more imms, or at least, more players to be aware of whats going on. Perhaps the heroes of the mud could make note of when significant roleplaying is going on and calling attention to it.

Sorry if this isn't too coherent. I'm still tired.

[Rhelian]

I don't think a minimum hour requirement is a good idea for leveling - it would force people into RP or idling when they don't want to be there, and someone who is forced to do somethign usually does it badly and resents it. 300 hours for level 30 is 150 days if playing for two hours a day, or 21 weeks - and I'm sure everyone will agree that getting to level 30 or beyond is usually achieveable in less that 21 weeks on average, even if levels are heavily supported by RP. For me, Rhelian took about 1200 hours to level out, and I have been playing her for about two years I think (roughly). This was partly my choice, as I wanted to roleplay her development, and partly because it is fairly hard to get wizards the last ten levels or so. I have played warriors and priests as characters, and they gain levels a lot quicker - if I wanted to I could level out a warrior in about 50 - 60 hours, and a priest in under 100, but doing that with a wizard isn't possible unless you have a lot of help.

Requiring essays to gain levels would again seem to drain the fun out of characters for some players, especially for those who cannot or do not like writing essays. Powerleveling has it's own problems attached to it already, namely being poor skills, little or no RP contact, and the fact you probably won't gain any noteable positions as the Imms dislike it. Requiring Imm-noticed RP to level would also mean those who play outside of an Imm's timezone are less likely to get noticed.

If you really wanted to set apart the RP-oriented characters from the powerleveling ones, then use the pretiege class system to do so - and make the advancement in these classes RP and Imm dependant.

[Rhytania]

I agree totally with Rhelian, there have been many times that due to timezones there has just been nobody to RP with and when your looking at another 10 - 12 hours of NightShift duty to stand and theres nothing else to do, you almost have no choice but to do quests and explore and gain exp. however, powerleveling still isnt an excuse, but i can see why some of the new characters sometimes get confused...I remeber my 'I cant RP effectively without being max level days' but after awhile I learned that it doesnt matter what level you are, but how you RP.

I think that prestige classes are a great idea and itll give the players who just want to level and those who are more concerned with story and RP a fine line drawn between them. If anyone can become max level then the Prestige Classes would give those who arent as concerned something to show for their hard work.

just me own thoughts....
-Rhytania

[Ketjana]

Putting hours requirements on levels is ridiculous. This is not something that can be put into concrete terms. Take a player in Zhentil Keep, there are not plentiful RP opportunities (ASK LATHLAIN) with players let alone IMM RPs. These characters are supposed to sit idle and type who and score and build 200 hours for level 20? Thats just dumb. Leveling can be increased by changing experience needed. I have characters who are under 300 hours and are level 40 or so. They have developed in-depth roleplays except few know about them because they do not camp in waterdeep market for 500 hours. Sitting in Waterdeep square constantly is as bad as powerleveling.
It needs to be looked at individually for each character whether or not there is roleplay behind a character. I can level anyclass out in less than 200 hours. Its simple, I choose not too.

My cleric of Tempus is widely known yet seldom interacted with because she is not a boucny happy person so it gets boring doing nothing so she went and fought things. She gained levels, she is not decked out in the most and best eq in the game. She is dressed completely for her roleplay. She is only around 350 hours.

As for Bragbubs argument about being beat by my character with 200 hours. You were not beat because of my 'skill levels' in the skills. You were beat because of the tactics I used to beat you. Your higher skills were made a moot point by the tactic employed. So for everyone who complains about their character being surpassed by this person or that person simply learn to use what your character has been given. Most people never explore the tactics available to each of the classes.

[Mele]

*shiver* I agree with Rhelian etc. How much do you want the game to be monitored, really? Please pass go, but take 1000 hours, write an essay, and have other players and the staff allow you to.
Mele reached level 50 with approxomitely 350 hours. Personally, I didn't think that was so terrible. But as it turns out, the talk amoungst my peers is I'm a twink(God I love that term. :P) So now I'm spending a lot of time one my other chars, walking around a lot. Who is my new favorite command. ;)
There could be 30 people on the who list, and no one in sight. The first time I'd heard of another player judging how long it took me to level, I was completely devestated. I completely thought 350 hours was appropriate, and that I had done nothing wrong. But playerbase votes otherwise. Where it was fairly easy to level Mele, I cannot seem to level my wizard for the life of me. So, it just happened, that it came easy and quick, apparently.
I'm already finding myself spending a lot of time, alone, in a room, typing score who and eq, because I don't want to level and no one is about. I don't understand how players are just no leveling until they have 1000+ hours. That a lot of hours. I think that no ones looking at it that way. For some reason everyone is acting like 1000 hours is a small amount of hours. But really, it's kind of a lot.
I guess that's my point. For all my babbling. How many hours is enough? Shouldn't it vary per character class, etc? So many different things affect how you level time zone, etc. Where one person may get in 1000 hours of role play in a few months, it could likely take a year or more for another. We all work or go to school or have a family to care for, we've all got different scheduals, you can't just throw everyone in the same category. :)

Aroo? Aroo.
~Danica

[Rhelian]

From a rough guess of a playerbase of 100, take a look at this:
http://pub88.ezboard.com/fforgottenking ... D=22.topic
1000 is a lot 30% of voters had between 1000 and 2000 hours.

If a player doesn't want to level till they reach 1000+ hours, good for them - they have a goal. Not everyone is the same.

350 hours to hit level 50 as a bard, that's about 7 hours a level. One, maybe two hours out killing things, five hours of RP. Not a bad ratio at all.

[Andreas]

Hey, I never said math was my strong point. *GRIN* I did pay $70 for a calculator after all

I've seen some newbies who come into the game roleplaying from the very start still dressed in all their plain newbie equipment. I've never been one to judge a character on their equipment. Kinda funny actually to have been RPing with one for quite a while then finally LOOK at them and see all the plain equipment.

I think I'd have to pretty much agree with Ketjana in the end on this: just make the experience gap between levels greater. People will still probably spend hours just hacking away at mobs to level, but hopefully they'll appreciate those levels more.

[Mingus]

I play another mud that requires, what they call, "Travel Points" in addition to experience points. Where as the experience ponts(XP) you get from mobs/quests/PK these travel points(TP) are gained by roaming arounf the muds zones. Since theirs an actual black and white disinction to PK, this tp system is set up to make the two sides interact with each other. As I understand it, its an X amount of tps randomly distributed in rooms that no one has been in in the last few ticks at each tick.

Here we need something simular but RP as the means of aquiring the additional new points.(lets call them Role Play Points or RPPs) Since you can't actually have mobs or rooms give these points, it boils down to actual people power. Much like the Imss giving out Quest Points.(QP) So lets say to gain levels 50 - 60 you would need RPPs in addition to XP except you gain RPPs from IMMS much like QP are handed out as rewards. But the only benifit of RPPS is to gain that next level and not exchangeable like QPs.(stats/renames/skills ect) The Imms can give RPPs much easier since they only have one purpose and much like XP it takes a rather large number of them to level.

[Bragbub]

I can see that having hour requirements to level isn't a perfect idea, and it's definately not my most favorable but I thought it was somthing that I could throw out in the open to see everyone's reaction. There are ways to make it so your hours played will not go up while idling, so there won't be players just letting their character go into the void and get a couple of hours before being kicked off. Another problem with this idea is that it's very "goodie-biased". Like Ketjana said there aren't many role play opportunities for evil characters ( or non-Waterdhavians in general ) and that's because of the lack of players in that area. And while I don't exactly think this idea is a stupid idea, it's just a bad idea that would need a lot of thought and work put into it.

[Aklen]

I think that a glory requirement for levels is a bad idea. What I think this would do is end up with a problem where people are rushing through quests, using some kind of guide (a nice friend or some such ) in an effort to get the glory so they can level. Instead of actually promoting roleplay, we may end up with people speeding through the quests we have and losing some of the atmosphere the mud has.

Though it could work, and I'd like it a lot if it caused Imms to reward RP more. I know rewarding RP is hard because the best of RPs are hardly ever monitored, but like I said, perhaps we could involve the MUD's longtime players or heroes in this aspect? Not like it'd be a gurantee on a reward, but just a, "Hey, Ketjana has really been doing some great rp lately, perhaps next time you see her you could drop her a glory (or experience depending on the level of the cahracter) ".

hmm... oh and, roleplaying really is the best part of this game. Trust me. I've leveled a lot of characters here... and the roleplay is the best. In a way, the people who avoid the roleplay for the powerleveling are only hurting themselves... Of course, I say that until one of them comes by and kicks my ass in a pk situation. =P

[Aklen]

Oh, and in terms of using glory to determine ability to advance I think this is a really bad idea. While there are plenty of quests out there, its not always IC for characters to do them all, most, or even some of them. This is something to keep in mind with this idea, as if you roleplay an orc and to a lessre extent and evil character, there just aren't as many quests as there are for neutral / good guys.

...But I do know you guys are working on new areas and quests, so in time I know it'll all even out.

[Sia]

First of all, I really love the idea of an "RP Staff," if you will, composed of long-time players and hero chars that have consistently proven to be good roleplayers that can take note of other chars that are out there roleplaying and adding to FK, rather than just building equipment and levels, but I'm not sure how much the admin would like taking time out to create another forum/channel/mailing group/etc

As for the hour requirements, I think that would fall under the same category as writing essays for level advancement. Simply more work and coding and, ultimately, trouble, than its worth to implement. I've had my thief char for three years now, and I'm only now pushing 750 hours because I spend too much time at school and not enough on the MUD--I only recently leveled to 41 after a real life year of killing almost soley bandits. However, this is a somewhat extreme case, for those of you that know Sia. My point for that? Sure, there could be time requirements, but you'll just end up old, waddling, and insane.

Sia

[Rhelian]

Requiring Imm-given "RP points" for leveling is a bad idea, again because not everyone plays in the same timezone. If the idea of a "RP Neighbourhood Watch" was brought up, then I think those characters who are on it should be kept a secret, otherwise people would leap into RP around them in the hopes of getting points. The best rewards are random ones, and the best RP is when you do it for yourself and not for some fancy reward.

[Bragbub]

I can say first-hand that using glory wouldn't go too well with orcs because there are only a couple of quests an orc can do, and some of these quests have level requirements ( and I think one doesn't even work now ). So if you needed glory to raise your level but you had to have a certain level to get glory hardly anyone would get anywhere ever ( especially orcs ). Unless, of course, there are going to be different requirements for different races/alignments... which I doubt the admins really care to figure out before giving somone experience

[Andreas]

I always try to give praise where praise is due when I interact with other players. I keep a lot of logs and some of them are posted on my private site for the staff to read through at their leisure. Roleplaying is fun, but it's even better when there's someone else to roleplay with you!

Along those lines... rather than picking a select few to "judge" roleplay, why not allow everyone the oppurtunity to do so? On some MUSHes (pure roleplay, no levels system) I've played in the past, every player could vote once a week for another character whom they thought showed exceptional roleplay. You only got one vote per RL week and could not vote for the same character twice in a row. The character with the most votes would receive some sort of little reward for being recognised by their fellow players as an outstanding roleplayer. Maybe something alone these lines would work here? This way every player has a chance to recognise others for exceptional roleplay and it will, hopefully, encourage players to roleplay together more often.