Names of areas you are in..

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:24 pm

I know many of you have done this and probably the equivelent amount of you have died because you didn't know where you are. Had you known, you could have checked 'area' and said 'Oh, wait, this is a high level dungeon/quest area' and left.

Unfortunately, because I was exploring today with another person, we found a really cool area. We were slipping though before we entered a nice little area filled with blue kobolds (I still don't even know the area, but after seeing this I KNOW it has to be high level).

Being Tempurian has its rewards and weaknesses. Not being able to flee until your party has being one of the definate weaknesses.

I died.

Now, while this is part of the game, it is also slightly annoying because you know it should have been avoided. These very dangerous areas should most definately come with some sort of warning at least like Blue Alley has.

What I propose is unmasking areas for mortals.

Perhaps, a 'location' command to find out where you are. You enter Waterdeep and it's obvious where you are. You go to Westgate, the name is all spelled out for you. Unfortunately, this is not so in most areas you 'find' without a ? on the map.

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:30 pm

I am slightly confused what you are trying to say...

Are you trying to say there should be like a rating in the corner of the first window descrption you go into so that way you know if it's a good idea to go down there?

Or are you saying that you want the title of the area on the screens you see as you wander? Like for example, going through oh let's see.. Tangled Trees... there would be a Tangled Trees icon or the title of the area in the corner in like a color that is noted for being a cityscape?

I am confused.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:41 pm

I do not understand.

Did you walk into the area, or did you teleport in it?

If you walked in it, you should know where it is, no? If you teleported in it, well... that's IC for you not to know where it is.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:49 pm

Okay, perhaps I was not clear enough.

What I am asking is that there be a location command that tells you what 'area' you are in so that you can look, via area command, to see if you should be there with only two people to explore together.

I am not asking for a rating, I am explaining that just because you wander into a cave does not mean you know OOCly 'Hey, I am in this area! Ooo, I'm not supposed to be here.' What I am asking is that the players be granted a way to know what area they are in so they can avoid unnecessary deaths.

Amalia · Post by **Amalia** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:29 pm

I think I know what Selveem is getting at. I don't really run into this anymore myself (since I've half-memorized the game map

), but as a newer player I had plenty of instances where I would meander about and suddenly find myself dead in a flash at the hands of some big nasty I completely hadn't expected. If an area line, or an area note on the status bar, or a checkable area command existed, I suspect it would have a noticeable impact on the number of "stupid deaths" in the game.

Plenty of troublesome areas already have built-in warnings of some kind or another, but since every builder can't be expected to put a "level label" on their area, it would be very nice to have a way to check the area type one is in, and I don't think it would give away anything OOC in a bad way, since there's already a list of areas and their classifications in existence.

Moloch · Post by **Moloch** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:50 pm

Why not just take someone with you just incase? Promotes RP. Fun for everyone.

Solaghar · Post by **Solaghar** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:23 pm

I understand what Selveem is saying and I agree with it. There's nothing that will hurt RP or the game by being able to type a command like 'area' and have it give you the name of the area you're in. You can then determine if it's somewhere you feel comfortable exploring based on the information given in the area list. Having someone with you doesn't make a difference realistically. No matter how many people you have with you, if you're under level 10 you still couldn't handle a high level dungeon.

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:55 pm

I don't know that I agree. Most adventurers die due to bad luck or miscalculation...or a little too much boldness. Raona wanted to explore a cave near the Keep, once...and got her justified, IC desserts for not asking a few questions first. If monsters only got to fight creatures prepared to face them, they'd all go extinct!

I mean, there are certainly "stupid deaths," like drowning while walking because you hit the wrong key, and the like. But I don't think an adventurer croaking in a dungeon that's tougher than they are is in that category...it's life! Er, death. ...and it's what friends, gods, and prayers are for. If you can't have bad luck befall you from time to time...you shouldn't expect godly miracles either, no? Or am I off my rocker here?

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:19 am

I think I would still end up going into an area I was over classed for. Just for perverse curiosity sakes. I do that alot actually.

Hey..what is this ? ... ooo.. Summerfield? Oh this sounds like fun.

Tavik · Post by **Tavik** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:02 am

I both agree and disagree with this. I don't think it will hurt anything if we implement it and it will serve to help eliminate some of those "Gee, I wish I had known this was a cave filled with dragons, I wouldn't have brought my L12 rogue in to be a snack then."

On the other hand, thing are fairly effective the way they are albeit to a more fatal extent. Having people wander cluelessly into these areas and getting ripped to shreds gets that area a reputation for being tough, and from my experience, that tough reputation is a little over the top. An example would be: I hear area X is tough because a few people wandered in and got destroyed. I gather a party together to go explore it. We go in, explore, and either find that it is too easy, just right, or still insanely hard. We come back and share our experiences. Repeat.

In this way, areas develop their own "difficulty rating" simply by being visited, and all this is done by completely IC methods. But as I stated in my first point, I can't think of any detrimental effects that would result from allowing players to view areas.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:12 am

Solaghar, the command you agree with is already there. "Area" exists and lets you know the general level of the place. What I THINK is being asked is a way to learn what areas are tough BEFORE venturing there.

In my opinion that should be IC. Now if Selveem stumbled on a cool spot that's tough, he'll spread the word IC and that kind of thing enhances the game. My PERSONAL opinion here is that it would be quite boring if we all knew where to go and when. I'd rather explore and find out.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:04 am

Absolutely. But, at the same time the game is kind of like an 'Autopilot DM.' A regular (good) DM would not be like 'Your party of two enters this cave and is immediately attacked by two blue colored kobolds. As you are fighting them, magic missiles eminate from the east and arrows shoot at you from the west and you get to die. Ha ha ha ha. Now take your experience penalty and beg someone to aid you.'

Correct?

Solaghar · Post by **Solaghar** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:44 am

Lathander wrote:Solaghar, the command you agree with is already there. "Area" exists and lets you know the general level of the place. What I THINK is being asked is a way to learn what areas are tough BEFORE venturing there.

In my opinion that should be IC. Now if Selveem stumbled on a cool spot that's tough, he'll spread the word IC and that kind of thing enhances the game. My PERSONAL opinion here is that it would be quite boring if we all knew where to go and when. I'd rather explore and find out.

When you type area all you get is the list of areas with their general level for a select few of them... but if you don't know the name of the area you're in, what use is this? What I mean is this. If I step into a room and it says, "A dark cave" if I am a newbie, how do I know whether I am in the low level dungeon of The Howling Peaks or some high level dungeon like Sasszrin's Dungeon? As another example, it used to be that there was a down exit in Skullport that would send you deep into UM, into an area where high level characters are regularly slaughtered. This was fixed thankfully, but if people had the ability to see once they stepped somewhere that, "Oh, hey... wow... this area is for people a *lot* tougher than me" then they could turn around and go back.

In real D&D, your DM will make sure you're not getting into situations you generally can't handle. We don't have a DM walking around with each one of us constantly making sure we're not doing something completely retarded out of plain ignorance. So I think it would be fair to give people the tools to allow them a better chance of survival. Being able to type a command like, "areainfo" and get back simply the exact name of the area and the recommended levels for adventuring there (something contained in every area file) would allow people to determine for themselves if they want to explore. Again this has nothing to do with, "Oh people should explore in a group" or "People should just run with it!" because there is nothing fun about walking into a room and being slaughtered in an instant like people could easily have happen in several areas in the game out of complete ignorance of the sort of stuff in there. It has nothing to do with level or willingness to group or anything like that.

There are places newbies and lowbies just shouldn't go unless they know the dangers ahead of time and it's an unfair advantage for people who are OOC'ly familiar with the game. No matter how adventurous some new character I might make one day is, I would not at level 10 try to explore the Old School of Wonder. But if I was an actual newbie, what is wrong with taking a step into this place to look around... oh no, a demon just tore out my throat. Stuff like that tends to frustrate new players more than anyone, especially if they haven't made many IC friends yet, don't even really know what happened. I just think of it as a general fairness issue.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:50 am

Tavik wrote:In this way, areas develop their own "difficulty rating" simply by being visited, and all this is done by completely IC methods. But as I stated in my first point, I can't think of any detrimental effects that would result from allowing players to view areas.

Actually, if Immies prefer not to tell us where we are, this is a really good idea Tavik. Perhaps just an 'arating' command that lets you know, based on stars, the level range.

0 stars (asterisks) = 0-10 level range.
1 stars (asterisks) = 11-20 level range.

Etc, etc. All the way up to max level, 50 which would be alone with 5 asterisks.

*highfive Tavik*

Japcil · Post by **Japcil** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:59 am

What if an area has been designed to require a few high level(45+) characters, one or two being priests? Really it boils down to curiousity. If you werent sure and didn't use the look command, I would expect you to die. Had you been a little less curious and decided to wait and seek a party to join you in adventuring you might have survived. What fun is it for builders and players of priests if no one ever gets hurt? But remember not all builders are out to just build an area for you to die in, yet they build them to provide a challenge, you lost this time, but perhaps next time you will be causious and scout an area before hand. Make use of the tell channel and see if anyone can remeber the area you describe to them, there are sooo many IC things to do before requiring the code to tell you that you are venturing into a deadly area. Thats like asking another PC their level before hashing it out in a duel so whether you know your going to live, theres not fun in it.

Gwain · Post by **Gwain** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:22 am

Speaking from the perspective of someone that has died in a great deal of areas he discovered on his lonesome, these things happen. I would rack it up to learning experience. These things happen to the b est of us and the worst, sometimes you can icly avoid it by utilizing means of scouting or you'll have a suffiecient group with you. Either way death happens and you often have to roll with it. I'd rather be suprized than know already if an area was going to be the end of me.

However...

I think something of a wisdom/lore check at the enterance of an area would be interesting. You would feel a sense of foreboading power or business as usual before entering. Instead of crunching numbers or reading a list of difficult areas that would be instead an interesting ic tactic.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:24 am

Six stars for a full raiding party!

As for looking, I looked plenty. We did all that was possible to be careful. We were invisible for scouting, but they saw right through it.. normal Kobolds. Now, personally I don't care. I like a good challenge. But something like that is a death trap as far as I'm concerned for two people who are just curiously looking around.

You could say 'Well, why didn't you have a Dwarf to look down there with infravision?' or 'Why didn't you have your wizard cast infravision?' To be honest, we did try to be as careful as possible. There was nothing to identify the area (no 'sign') or anything else to warn us 'Hey, you're about to die.'

The point is, even if I had a full 7 party group of level 20s, they'd all be waiting in the fugue for someone to be nice and raise them. Or, an Imm to get online.

I don't think it's being unreasonable to ask for some OOC consideration. After all, that Imm could be watching RP of those same level 20 characters exploring another area that they aren't going to get remorselessly slaughtered in.

Alternatively, what would it hurt to have this command implemented? I understand what I propose takes time out of the coders hands, but even most players would be able to rate a bunch of those areas properly. Things like home towns and the like need not be rated as they are 'passive' areas.

Edited to include: 80% of the time RP out my duels. 100% if I suspect that the character is more than 10 levels below me. It's more fun and interesting that way.

Amalia · Post by **Amalia** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:27 am

Capitol idea, Gwain. I think such an IC check could also lend itself to the creation of a feat like "danger sense" which gave bonuses to said check.

Japcil · Post by **Japcil** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:57 am

Ok lets say we do introduce a rating system. Now there is already a vague one using the areas command. Now here is the underlying difficulties. That list is generated based on colour code. Where the name of the area in the file uses the color code. So as an example there is a mid level training area in Golden Oaks, but Golden Oaks is a hometown not a dungeon area. It cannot be used twice in the list. So that rules out the current command of areas.

And to develop on rating areas, What about those small villages. They range from 0-10 level to 45+ level required. But did you know alot of them are shared in one file?

If its knowing what area you are in then, I will bring up my once suggestion of converting the who list of mortals to that of immortals. Since it is listed at the end of the titles for them. However change it so that only shows for the character being played not for the entire list.

The easies solution, and most effiecent is to either include checks like Gwain considered or have builders post signs, if they wish, in areas warning ICly about dangers lying ahead.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:36 am

Ah, no, I wasn't aware that some areas shared the same list of vnums. Of course, that makes perfect sense because God knows back when I built on a ROM we really did a lot of that as well.

In light of this, I can understand the difficulty as described. I definately don't want to know where I am based off the who command. That's way too Imm-ish for me.

I cannot think of an easy solution for this, but would be more than welcome to hearing out more suggestions. The lore thing is kind of nice. Perhaps it could rely on Knowledge Geography or Knowledge History? Would we run into the same problems?