Reacting to Orcish RP

[Raona]

NOTE FROM TEMPUS - Topic split from post on 'Kultur' so as not to detract from the purpose of that thread.

As a non-orc, reacting to orc RP is a real challenge for me. I appreciate the effort that goes into it, especially of late, and I think the current lot of orcs is RPing the orc world very well indeed. That said, OOC I just really really don't enjoy involvement in orc RPs. They feel like a drudgery and an obligation to me, because I thrive on communication interactions, and...well, orcs aren't big talkers, except when it comes to threats. In my IC experience there's no reasoning with them, or coming to any sort of compromise save dying or surrender and tribute if you "lose", or killing them if you "win". That's surely the orc way of things, but it's not what I want to do with my limited gaming time.

I don't say this to be dispiriting, but rather to hope to explain why I think some players, including myself, don't seek out orc RP - in fact generally seek to avoid it. I hope and trust that there are plenty of players in the game who do enjoy a might-makes-right, stop-the-yapping sort of RP, though, and I encourage them to just try and stop the friendly orcs razing the forest.

[Kregor]

In my IC experience there's no reasoning with them, or coming to any sort of compromise save dying or surrender and tribute if you "lose", or killing them if you "win". That's surely the orc way of things, but it's not what I want to do with my limited gaming time...

I hope and trust that there are plenty of players in the game who do enjoy a might-makes-right, stop-the-yapping sort of RP, though, and I encourage them to just try and stop the friendly orcs razing the forest.

To be fair, there IS another alternative when confronted by (or in the case of a recent RP, you choose to confront) a group of angry orcs. That is to run away. A good PKill situation HAS to give an out of the kill... it's the rule, and that option can be as simple as.. you run. And when offered a chance to run, choosing to stay and call in reinforcements to ride in from points clearly not within the allowable distance to enter into a PKill situation, well... you get what you really want, you just didn't know you were asking for it.

Frankly, the eagerness of players to run to Shilmista from points unknown, whenever they see an orc logged on the game and suspect they very well could be training in Shilmista, shows that there are plenty of goodies in the game living for the PKill as much as they may claim any orc is. For once, I would like to see a group of orcs running over to the Howling Peak to bully over some newbie goodies trying to train up on goblins, and threaten them, and tell them to get out, and see how the goodies feel. The difference: The goodies would cry foul, and say they're being bullied by the big bad orcs, and that they had no place coming to harass young players who are only there trying to train. Yet some will come down to Shilmista, stare down an orc, still wearing plain armour, and do nothing more than osaying "Killmode stun" and insisting on coming to blows over it.

[Raona]

To be fair, there IS another alternative when confronted by (or in the case of a recent RP, you choose to confront) a group of angry orcs. That is to run away.

No contest, your honor. The catch is whether running away or avoiding the situation can be somehow ICly appropriate for an elf watching other elves getting their heads lobbed off - but I've asked that question elsewhere so I won't repeat it here!

To be clear, in case I gave any impression to the contrary - Everything there was completely fair shakes. I didn't expect anything except to die in that situation, and clearly told the others to expect that fate before we plodded back in. But with a Tempurian, an elf, and a squire...well, we have our respective idioms to uphold. Bantering off didn't seem an ICly appropriate option. Maybe I've just been reading too many of those Betandor books they fill the squire's heads with these days, though!

[Exer]

Roana, I'm open to ideas as to how you would like to see a Orc RP unfold.

If it can get you and a few others to rp with us more often, then that's the goal!

[Raona]

Roana, I'm open to ideas as to how you would like to see a Orc RP unfold.

If it can get you and a few others to rp with us more often, then that's the goal!

What's missing for me in orc RP is their at least nibbling at persuasion and dialogue, but I think that's not really what people build orcs for, nor what they should be about! Orcs aren't debaters, and I think that's what most people who play them like about playing them, no?!? They don't discuss Aristotle over elven jerky and bloodwine! If I'm right about that, I don't know that I myself will ever be a keen orc RP participant (as dialogue and debate is my bag) but certainly there's a large population out there that could be - that loves taunts and insults and tactical traps and maybe deceit, especially if the orcs and their foes are willing to let folks somehow live to fight (or taunt, or trap, it doesn't have to be PK) another day, as it seems there's more willingness to do now.

As Gruumsh eloquently explained above, orcs are scheming, power-hungry, and fractious, but not stupid: and quite divinely inspired to believe they have been given the shaft and it's time to take what's rightfully theirs. Personally, I think what's really missing is orc vs. orc RP. I mean, they aren't Drow, but where's the internascene clan rivalry? Are orcs all just one big happy family? I'm not on the inside, I don't know...but as I suggested elsewhere, perhaps the best place to find more good orc RP is with more orcs?

I've thought about this since yesterday, and I'm at a bit of a loss to see how a knight(or elf)-vs-orc RP can end in much other than a fight. I certainly haven't found any room for diplomacy, and it's not really knightly to say "Aw, shucks, you're just killing elves and barbarians...go on, have your fun" and walk off. You can be intimidated away, but won't only a fool come back for more of that again tomorrow? So unless there's something I'm missing, I'm going to go back to giving the orcs a wide berth...and let the foolish blowhards get thumped by them.

[Grafghur]

I'm not really sure it's fair to peg all orc players in one group, saying that the only reason they create orcs is to insult and harass other players.

That is far from true. I've been the longest orc player in the game and during that time, I've had fantastic RP with good and evil. I'm sure many here can remember the many discussions we've had.

The problem is, no matter what the circumstances, an orc and an elf will never get along. They are not going to sit down and discuss poetry. Even if the elf is evil.

Orc vs Orc would be great rp, but at this stage there are too few orcs around for this to happen.

As a Knight (ie: when I play Exer) it's my duty to aid those who need it so I understand how you cannot avoid certain situations. That's the life of a Kinght, it's not all roses, you will get your hands dirty once in a while.

But keep in mind, you are as involved in the RP as the other side. You can influence the RP so that you too can have fun. That's the point of FK after all.

[Ooma]

I have only one thing to say that I think I can post and not get deleted, as this all is rather... perplexing... to say the least.

Raona, I think it rather presumptuous of someone who has never actually played with the orcs on a regular basis to say that the orcs have no knack for dialogue. This post was offensive...PERIOD


what irks me... is that someone wold post a very rude and degrading comment such as Raona did...about how simplistic and idiotic she felt the orc RP is... and then went so far as to comment on the type of PERSON who would play an orc!? ( I will refrain from speaking of this further as I am sure I will be banned from here) I believe that Grafghur was simply asking for suggestions since you seemed to want to comment and I feel he did such in a very diplomatic and polite way.

I will be blunt here. If you do not like RPing with orcs... Please do not... do not ride across the map to save your buddy or come to the orc encampment or try to be the all encompassing hero of the universe by entering into RP that you dislike. Just...don't that is a really simple solution. Sorry if I sound angry.. you bet your shiny boots I am.

Ooma

[Kregor]

but as I suggested elsewhere, perhaps the best place to find more good orc RP is with more orcs?

So the solution, in your mind, is to make the orcs off-limits to the rest of the realms, stuff them off into someplace where they just have to fight each other and can't threaten to mess with you... sorry, that's been done before, it's called Menzo for the drow. It's why the Drow RP is stagnant, and nobody plays them anymore, because there's really no interaction possible. So no, this is NOT the solution for the orcs.

So unless there's something I'm missing, I'm going to go back to giving the orcs a wide berth...and let the foolish blowhards get thumped by them.

So now that you've said this, can we count on it from you to avoid the orcs from now on? Frankly, I'll be more than happy to totally avoid RP with Raona the next time my orc sees her. Because all we've gotten, from you, as a result of this RP, is beratement, and attempts to make yourself, look somehow better than the Orc players, because things didn't go the way the goodies who came to play kill the orcs wanted it to go.

And funny... the only one who seems to be belaboring your side of the story for why Orc RP is not desireable RP... is you.

Yes, there's anger behind this post now. And I'm admitting it. Me, Ooma, and the rest of the Orc players were offended by some of the implications, from you, of the RP we put forth. Both from the posts here on the boards, and comments made OOCly on the MUD. And a simple "I'm sorry" would really suffice to patch things up in the end, instead of more belaboring on how your RP is somehow more elite than the Orcs.

[Oghma]

Raona, I think it rather presumptuous of someone who has never actually played with the orcs on a regular basis to say that the orcs have no knack for dialogue. This post was offensive...PERIOD

Sometimes you have to be open to other peoples opinions even if they don't agree with your own you should do your best to overlook it. Sometimes passion overrules what your saying. I have that problem as well.

what irks me... is that someone wold post a very rude and degrading comment such as Raona did...about how simplistic and idiotic she felt the orc RP is... and then went so far as to comment on the type of PERSON who would play an orc!? ( I will refrain from speaking of this further as I am sure I will be banned from here)

Please, please, please don't use names or criticise the poster like this! It is not productive to finding a solution. Help them understand rather than make them feel like garbage, it is always brave to post something you are not sure about and you should not be shot for doing it.

I will be blunt here. If you do not like RPing with orcs... Please do not... do not ride across the map to save your buddy or come to the orc encampment or try to be the all encompassing hero of the universe by entering into RP that you dislike. Just...don't that is a really simple solution.

It is against policy to icly run the length of a mud to a pvp or pk situation unless directed by an imm, please don't tell fellow players not to do something that would be ic for them to do if they are not sure about it. Remember not every player knows everything, we are all learners.

Finally, if you think something you post will get you banned or deleted or is derogatory then do not post it. Don't think you have to show someone up in the forums by being mean or rude, we are all good folks here and do not take everything personal, I can be accused of doing that but I find if you rationalize that everything can work out for the better.
[/quote]

[Dalvyn]

Start of moderation

Alright. Time to take a break and breathe everybody. I am going to tackle a problem that I have seen recently in many threads.

While reading the few posts above, I actually was blinking at my screen, and not only because it's 4am but because I couldn't believe what I read and I was actually wondering whether people READ other people's posts.

Written medium is well known for not being good at conveying nuances and intentions. Written things can often be interpreted in many different ways, but I have noticed that some people tend to systematically read them in the worst way possible.

I am going to comment Raona's post, because I do not see what warrants such aggressive answers to it. Breathe, read, and keep an open mind.

What's missing for me in orc RP is their at least nibbling at persuasion and dialogue, but I think that's not really what people build orcs for, nor what they should be about! Orcs aren't debaters, and I think that's what most people who play them like about playing them, no?!? They don't discuss Aristotle over elven jerky and bloodwine! If I'm right about that, I don't know that I myself will ever be a keen orc RP participant (as dialogue and debate is my bag) but certainly there's a large population out there that could be - that loves taunts and insults and tactical traps and maybe deceit, especially if the orcs and their foes are willing to let folks somehow live to fight (or taunt, or trap, it doesn't have to be PK) another day, as it seems there's more willingness to do now.

Notice the bold part, that I emphasised: "for me". I read this paragraph as Raona meaning that

1) in her opinion, orcs are not characters created for long philosophical debates and that is all fine, because orcs wouldn't ICly have such futile occupations;

2) she states that debate and dialogue is what she prefers;

3) she concludes that, if she is correct, then she cannot really think of a roleplay with orcs that she would enjoy (but she stresses out that this is her tastes and that others have different tastes);

4) she notes that the players behind the orcs are not bully pkillers and that the tendency is to let people live.

I fail to see anything that would warrant an aggressive reaction in that. She states her opinion, and very clearly expresses that this is what she thinks but she does not pretend that it's the truth. An interesting answer to this would have been to indicate situations where orcs would debate and talk more than threaten, bully ICly, and so on.

As Grafghur eloquently explained here, orcs are scheming, power-hungry, and fractious, but not stupid: and quite divinely inspired to believe they have been given the shaft and it's time to take what's rightfully theirs. Personally, I think what's really missing is orc vs. orc RP. I mean, they aren't Drow, but where's the internascene clan rivalry? Are orcs all just one big happy family? I'm not on the inside, I don't know...but as I suggested elsewhere, perhaps the best place to find more good orc RP is with more orcs?

The initial question was how to create more roleplays for orcs. The answer Raona comes with is that perhaps there could be rivalry between orcs, more "political" dealings. And, once again, she re-states that this is her opinion, "from the outside", and that she simply shares an idea.

I can't see anything to justify an aggressive reaction here either.

I've thought about this since yesterday, and I'm at a bit of a loss to see how a knight(or elf)-vs-orc RP can end in much other than a fight. Confused I certainly haven't found any room for diplomacy, and it's not really knightly to say "Aw, shucks, you're just killing elves and barbarians...go on, have your fun" and walk off. You can be intimidated away, but won't only a fool come back for more of that again tomorrow? So unless there's something I'm missing, I'm going to go back to giving the orcs a wide berth...and let the foolish blowhards get thumped by them. Wink

Finally, she concludes that she cannot see any other outcome to orc-knight roleplay that a fight, because there is no room for diplomacy when one is on a divine mission (orcs re-conquering the world) and the other has to react to the murder of innocents.

Since this is not the kind of interaction she likes, she deduces that it might be better for her to just stay away from this kind of roleplay.

I do not want to delete posts, or lock threads, or do anything like that, so I would ask everybody to make sure to READ the previous posts and not jump into aggressive mode immediately.

I have seen this kind of things in several threads, and I sure do not like it. If you cannot post with a calm mind, then go outside for a walk first before coming back to post.

End of moderation

[Solaghar]

Getting back to the original topic at hand, I want to make some statements regarding Orc RP as someone who has RPed with Orcs fairly often, seeks out Orcish RP and generally has fun with it. Raona made a few statements that I am going to tackle, don't take them as any sort of assault, I merely wish to address them because I think she's to a large extent saying what other people might be thinking.

Orc vs Orc RP: Saying that what the Orcs really need is Orc vs Orc RP is akin to saying that Waterdhavian RP is really lacking because the rivalry between Waterdeep and Luskan isn't well represented. Would it be nice if the player base was large enough and the administration had enough free time to work out numerous plots dedicated to the intense, sometimes violent competition between Waterdeep and Luskan? Sure, it would only be beneficial. If there were enough Orcs playing in your average day to be something other than generally surprised at seeing one-another, I have a feeling they'd be more than happy to develop competing clans. As Kregor aptly put it regarding Drow RP, when you're a Drow, you are excited and happy to see another Drow. Often the last thing you want to do is alienate what may be the first other PC you've seen in weeks. I assume the same holds true for Orcs, especially since they have the option of exploring the whole world and banding together against their enemies. But the end point is that if someone doesn't like the sort of RP going on in Waterdeep, the answer is not to suggest that maybe if the Luskan-Waterdeep relationship were more accurately portrayed as it is closer to the way things "really are". One shouldn't even suggest there is a "Waterdeep type" of roleplay, Orcs are all individuals and if you speak to them for more than a few minutes you'll find that each one has their own personality. Some you will be able to get along with, some you won't, depending a lot on your own personality too, but it's no different than any other race.

Roleplaying with Orcs: When I roleplay with Orcs, I do it on tip-toes. I try to use small words and mimic their speech patterns so that they better understand me. I try not to use big words, I complement them on their strength and ferocity, to put them at ease. But I've also browbeaten them as a more powerful Orc would do, or conversely taken a completely submissive role to appease a powerful Orc. The reason I do this is because Orcish society is hierarchical, and before I try to roleplay with one I like to establish where I am in relation to them so that we both know what's going on. Human society in this time period is similarly hierarchical, with the varying stations of nobility, peasantry, etc, and realistically among the first things many humans should be talking about between each other, especially Paladins and the like, is determining what the class of the person they're speaking with is, to alter their own RP.

The reason I 'alter' my RP is that I understand that an Orc should be more than a funny-looking human with a weird culture, they should be something more alien. And when you try to communicate with something alien, you need to establish a basic level of where everyone stands. I have found that once you establish this level, even good characters can become respected by Orcs. But to expect to sit down with an Orc and debate the meaning of good and evil or the nature of the Gods would be an argument in futility. RP isn't just a choice between sipping tea and talking philosophy or being killed by Orcs, there is a middle-ground that is a lot of fun. Would I personally become bored if I was limited to only Orcish RP? I admit I would, because I enjoy the same sort of RP Raona does, the discussions of faith, politics, etc. Orcs can have these discussions too, but expect them to be very different, and don't expect the Orc to either understand exactly what you're saying or not get offended or upset by points you make which are contrary to their world-view.

RP "going badly": Sometimes RP that 'goes badly' for one person or a group goes very well for someone(s) else. Unlike real D&D, it's not all of us players together versus all of the NPCs set up by the admins. I was always under the impression (and do remember reading somewhere, though not sure if it's an official policy) that when it came to the killing of mobs without proper names, entering into a PKill situation was inappropriate. Named mobs such as famous people, certain shopkeepers, and other such things, one could enter into PKill situations over with caution and a lot of tact, while once players started conflicting with other players, it is generally an open field.

I don't think avoiding RP is ever the answer. But people have to realize that RP doesn't always go the way they have it in their minds. Everyone else has their own goals here, sometimes the goals are already compatible with yours, sometimes they can be altered slightly to make a better situation for both, or sometimes they can be completely exclusive. It's always better to have an RP which everyone enjoys, but it has to be understood that it's not always possible. When I hear that someone wants to avoid RP, what I generally read, and please don't take this as an attack, is that someone wants to avoid RP which won't come out in a way that is guaranteed to be something they like. As someone who primarily plays evil characters, I understand that the things I do are often intensely disliked by people, definitely on an IC level and sometimes on an OOC level. I never care if people dislike what I do IC'ly, but it does bother me if people dislike what I do OOC'ly. I just think the key is that you need to understand that there will be some bad alongside what is usually a whole lot of good.

If someone was to find that every time they RPed with different Orcish characters it ended up in a PVP situation, then I would look at what I was doing rather than what they were doing. We can not always expect people to bend to our desires completely, and the more RP-intensive races and classes have this problem far more than your average neutral human, they have much less room to bend. But I don't see a big difference in the way I'd alter the way my character acts to deal constructively with an Orc and the way my character might act to deal constructively with a Paladin. They both possess very serious codes of how one should behave and interact with others. In the end this game has no winners and losers, it's like the real world. You have friends and you have people you dislike and a ton of people you probably just don't know or care much about. Sometimes bad things happen and you have to deal with them. Often the worst things are completely unexpected, and can occur when you think you're doing what you're supposed to be doing. A good guy might never be able to sit down with an Orc and talk about Wittgenstein and epistemology, but that doesn't mean you can't have an interaction that isn't fun for both of you, but conversely you can't always expect to come out on top either. We all have our character's goals and none of us is an admin-run RP with predetermined success regardless of the choices made.

[Raona]

Solaghar: Thank you for your thoughtful post! I clearly have failed, thus far, to acquire the art of tip-toe negotiation. The one time I tried the tact you describe, my counterpart was deeply insulted, rather than more amenable, but one instance does not a rule make, and I probably did it wrong, too. (I don't understand Orc culture, and Raona certainly doesn't!)

On the broader topic, I worry that now the more I say here the more it is going to make matters worse, whatever my intentions. Exer asked a question and I tried to answer it transparently, saying what I feel. If my feelings are wrong, misguided, and shortsighted, tell me I'm wrong, that I'm way off base. I can deal with that. I can't stop you from taking offense but please don't presume that was my intent. I did not intend to impune the general nature of the players who play orcs, or raise anyone's blood pressure, and I'm sorry that clearly I did. I went to great lengths to avoid making any categorical statements, and I didn't take to the keyboard calculating what to write to make anyone angry.

I'm not so new that I fail to realize that most people who play orcs also play other alts, of all stripes, and are generally amongst the best RPers in the game. In fact, I take that as the strongest evidence that there's something to this - I RP with the players of orcs when they are on other alts, and it's wonderful; but I have a very negative reaction when I interact with the very same people when they are on their orc characters. It suggests that there's something about world of orcdom that either I haven't yet learned to appreciate, or just won't. I stand by my assertion that based on the RP's I have actually had with orcs, in this game, they have not gone in much for diplomacy or negotiation that I so enjoy, at least as I understand it, despite efforts on my part to initiate such, and that is why I generally steer away from RPs involving orcs when that's ICly plausible. I'm not saying that this is the only enjoyable RP activity - just that it's my personal cup of tea. If my experience is the exception rather than the rule, I trust others will offer their own experiences and insights to enlighten me and any others like me as to how to better handle (and enjoy) such situations - as Solaghar has done. That's all I was really hoping for, and I hope it's part of the point of the forums.

I do want to say that I reject and rather resent the insinuation on the part of several that if Raona (or anyone else invovled) had only managed to clobber all the orcs and make them scurry away, they would have had a grand old time - that the frustration I expressed above is a reflection of being a "sore looser." That's not true at all. I harbored absolutely no delusions about how any combat that started was going to end up - I didn't OOCly decide to engage in that RP in hopes of "winning" in PvP combat...and I'd be a "sore winner" if by some miracle it had gone the other way. My frustration is with the nature of the interactions I've had with orcs, and I genuinely want to understand if/how it is possible for me to change what I do in hopes of improving that situation. If not, that's fine too - it's not the job of orc players to make me happy, and there is no rule that says we have to interact frequently.

Reading back over them, my original comments were overly categorical and I apologize for the tone they set and the feelings they engendered in others. It would probably have been better had I just kept my opinion and frustration to myself.

I feel like we've now sullied Gruumsh's excellent original posting on orc Kulture with this muckrake, and that it's my fault. If someone with the power to do so could break this thread off at my first comment, into a new thread, that would be smashing. I tacked onto Grummsh's original posting only because I thought it spoke eloquently to the crux of the issue at hand.

[Jaenoic]

I'm going to step in and say that my experiences mirror yours, Raona. Of all the encounters with Orcs I've had on my characters, I can't think of a single one that I didn't get that heated, nervous feeling "this is going to end in PKill." I want to say now that I hate PKills, they make people bitter and more often than not are not not needed. Granted sometimes they fine, they are well RPed, they add to a character's depth and history, they are enjoyed by both parties. But the majority of my experiences say otherwise. But I digress.

I agree with Raona's point that the very nature of the orc makes them pretty much impossible to deal with. They hate elves and dwarves and look down on pretty much all other races, including humans, gnomes, and halflings. They are not a diplomatic race. They live for the hoarde, they train tirelessly to kill their enemies and bring glory to Gruumsh over enemy deities(which is all of them, as he has no allies to my knowledge). As such they are naturally dispositioned to not be as sociable and friendly towards other races. I dare say they're xenophobic by design.

Because of this, I find it hard to assume that an orc wants anything but hostility from a good character, at least one of said races. I'm NOT saying all they want is PKill; I'm NOT saying all they want to do is antagonize goods. I'm saying that my character's IC thinking is "what other aims would an orc be going for except to conquer me?" And that stigma already sets up the tense mood should an orc-good RP occur. Already when a good enters that situation, they may feel that the encounter will inevitably end with a PKill, because ICly they can't really see what else an orc would want.

All orcs are expected ICly to follow Gruumsh. They are expected to participate in orc-bonding rituals. These are great things, don't let me sound like I am bashing them. But the end result is a unified orc force. Bad thing? Not at all. But a unified orc force is not diverse, it works toward the same goal, that goal being Gruumsh's divine mandate. How can goods be expected to expect anything else but hostility from orcs with such a unified, divine force?

I'm not saying the blame lies with the orcs. Blame is pointless and usually it is placed by someone not wanting the blame themself. That said, non-orcs also contribute to this hostile stigma. Think about every D&D game made. Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, NWN. In how many of them do you encounter dozens of orc parties that are instantly hostile? How many of them do you encounter a friendly orc? The answers are respectively all and none. This shows that by popular belief, orcs are already considered to be an "engage on target" sort of enemy. They're the classic enemy for an adventuring party to battle. They are inherently hostile.

But FK is not a linear AD&D computer game. It's progressive, free-form, and creative. Therefore we seek to break that awful "It's us vs them, let's kill them" idea of orcs vs everyone else. Why? Because that sort of mentality leads to a PvP mud, and FK is not a PvP mud. Those who know me know that I'm the first to want to come up with creative solutions to PKilling. I guess I can't really offer any solutions, though, because I haven't found any yet. But, I did want to say that as a player who enjoys playing goodies, I understand where Raona is coming from, and I wanted to try to offer some reasoning as to why that is. I hope no one takes my words the wrong way; I don't discredit the worth of orcs and I have the utmost respect for those who play them. I don't feel that orc RP is any less complex or worthwhile, easier or harder than any other RP. But I wholeheartedly understand the frustration Raona is feeling. ICly as a good we can't ignore the actions of a raiding orc, but OOCly we don't really want to get involved in a situation we see no end in other than PKill.

And Raona, don't be discouraged to speak your opinion about these things. As long as you mean well, which I believe you did, then you can't be blamed for your opinion. I believe you were just trying to find a solution to a frustrating problem you've encountered, and there's nothing wrong with that. The opinion's intent was not to flame, insult, or degrade so there's no problem in expressing it.

[Algon]

All orcs are expected ICly to follow Gruumsh. They are expected to participate in orc-bonding rituals. These are great things, don't let me sound like I am bashing them. But the end result is a unified orc force. Bad thing? Not at all. But a unified orc force is not diverse, it works toward the same goal, that goal being Gruumsh's divine mandate. How can goods be expected to expect anything else but hostility from orcs with such a unified, divine force?

I understand what you guys are getting at, I agree with some aspects of what you are saying. And I also disagree with somethings as well.
I emplore you to sit down and read a book like 1000 Orcs and see what the Orc race is really like. There would be absolutly NO debate when coming upon a group of Orcs if they were to start RPing like they are actually supposed to. You would not have the opportunity to realize that the Orcs were uneducated and that their communication skills are lacking. If you came across a group of Orcs from the Forgotten Realms world you would have two choices fight or run because trying to talk you way out of it is NOT an option.
So the RP that the Orcs of FK is actually MUCH less intense and not geared twards a PK as you might think.

I agree with Raona's point that the very nature of the orc makes them pretty much impossible to deal with. They hate elves and dwarves and look down on pretty much all other races, including humans, gnomes, and halflings. They are not a diplomatic race. They live for the hoarde, they train tirelessly to kill their enemies and bring glory to Gruumsh over enemy deities(which is all of them, as he has no allies to my knowledge). As such they are naturally dispositioned to not be as sociable and friendly towards other races. I dare say they're xenophobic by design.

This is absolutly true and in my oppinion is what makes the Orc rp fun. But, that being said...this does not differ much from the RP that the Drow have in place either. The only difference is the topside world does not have to deal with Drow as often as they do the Orcs.
But even if they did I believe it would be more enjoyable to most because, as you stated, they Drow have the ability to communicate quite elloquently before you have a dagger protruding from your chest.

Where as the Orcs do not have that ability. I myself have an Orc character that I do not play that often because the RP is NOT, in any sense of the word, easy. I consider myself to be a pretty decent RPer, but it takes someone quite special to RP an Orc well.
If you step outside of the Orc area you are number one on all the goodies list to kill. And trust me when I say that 90% of the time, it is NOT the Orc that starts the PK or harassment. Goodies want the right to brag about how they saved the small elven village from the big bad Orc invasion as much as the Orcs want to brag that they leveled a Elven village.

On the broader topic, I worry that now the more I say here the more it is going to make matters worse, whatever my intentions. Exer asked a question and I tried to answer it transparently, saying what I feel. If my feelings are wrong, misguided, and shortsighted, tell me I'm wrong, that I'm way off base. I can deal with that. I can't stop you from taking offense but please don't presume that was my intent.

Nonsense...we are all adults here and having someone give their oppinion should never be grounds for others to be upset, no matter how strongly they disagree. Stating your oppinion and trying to force everyone to see that you are right and they are all wrong are two completely different things and I do not think you are trying...nor would you try...to do the latter. I am a HUGE believe in someone having the right to say what they feel...so please do not get discouraged and do not stop posting on a subject you feel could be made better.

Now all this being said, I have an evil that communicates with the Orcs on a regular basis. And Algon has come across more then his share of them in his travels. There has been only one time where it atually came down to blows and that was because Algon started it with insults.

I commend the Orcs on their RP prowess. You have to sit back and think that they are NOT human...they do not act like them and nor should they. They are acting in the manner in which the creators of the species intened them to. While it may not be the type of RP you like , please do not deny them their right to have a meaningful RP. I promise you if you will let the RP happen you will be pleasently suprised on how much fun you had. EVEN IF it comes down to a PK situation, I say fight with all your might and pray that Tempus smiles upon you.

Forgotten Realms is a world that is set in conflict and war. There is absolutly no way that you are going to go your entire RP life through and not become involved in a PK situation...well unless you never leave the city...but have fun with it. I promise you that if you do not want to be PKed tell them OOCly to stun and they will. Behind the keyboard they are not really monsters, they are the same people who you have fun Rping with on other characters. They will not hold any animosity tward you if you choose not to fight till the death. ( I for one would no no problem with making it so one could not die at all during a PK) but that is a different topic for another day.

So in conclusion to this long and winded post...we are all here for one purpose, to have fun! So I would say dont shy away from RP because it is not what you like or are used to. Embrace it and learn the nuances of the other races of the game.

[Ooma]

My posts earlier were made after a very long.. sleepless night , trying to decide if it was worth my time to continue trying to foster and build RP in the Orc camp when the opinion of many of the people we would have to play with is already one formed that Orcs do not actually RP we simply wander in, say "killmode stun " in osay, grunt, scratch our crotches ( yes this has been said) and proceed to murder whomever happens to be the poor recipient of the lack of conversation.

Please note that my original post... Was a thank you to all who joined in and played etc. That said...

I reread the posts that originally angered me and each time I read them I looked for the things that Dalvyn picked out and compared them to the otell conversation that I had before all that was posted...when I was approached by a player oocly on the mud.. and took over an hour to try to speak about the situation and answer questions. From that conversation... I logged on only to see that the very things I had spoken of were reiterated in public as if... what I took the time to explain was not good enough...*sigh* In my defense,I did read the posts. In retrospect I should not have said things angrily but, we are all human ( yep... im not realy an orc I only play one on FK ) and after a night of not sleeping, worried that a lot of effort building and coding and trying to plan events for Orcs... and make some fun of a different kind on FK (from very good people IRL , I must say) was all sort of fuzzy at the moment because the first time we had a group come together in a VERY long time we were met with a Pkill situation that was UNINTENDED... and clearly from the rash of posts on the board someone felt it was planned and that... Selfish or no... led me to feel that this is all sort of like paddling up a gum river with a wooden paddle. ( very sticky >.< )

*breathes*

I am sorry if I made Raona feel I was singling her out... and berating her. but to be honest... there are 5 active orcs in the game and I am the FM .. so her remarks are pretty well focused. If she speaks of " the orcs" In general... and there are 5 of us who play on any regular basis she means me? ( if I made that assumption imprperly I apologize... again I am human and now going on 2 days with no sleep) Raona I am sorry I offended you and made the remarks in the manner that I did. What I am not sorry for, is the feeling I get when I read your post which seems TO me...( as in my opinion) that you are trying to say that orc rp can not possibly be rewarding or challenging, or worth anyone's time. maybe I inappropriately extrapolate this from your words but, we did speak at length and I felt like nothing I said had mattered. baically.. my point is...to those reading here... I wish to say...this was not just me coming here glazing the posts and flaming Raona because I am a mean person. And YES... i am sorry I spoke in anger regardless of the motivation.

going forward...

When I was made FM, I was charged with building a faith ( and indeed in this case ... an IC commmunity as the faith is an entire race) from the ground up. I did not come to this position with a mass of hopefuls who had been waiting to be faithed... I came in ... with maybe 2 orcs who ever even logged. What I COULD have done, was to say "Meh, piece of cake.. Ill log once a month and let everything stay status quo." I was NEW to orc RP and read as much as I could so that I would not be a total idiot. I am RP heavy person who actually LOATHES PKILL and so I refused to let those preferences go. Instead I sat and pondered on this side of the screen and talked oocly with others and indeed posted here a YEAR ago asking for suggestions and comments about how to BETTER the orc RP. You will note, only one person resonded to that call a year ago... and so choices were made based on literature and my conversations with those who seemed to care about orc RP...and Gruumsh. If this sounds like selfish rambling please forgive me... I know there are other orcs who put in as much time and effort as myself and I need to say that clearly and loudly. Without those who are dedicated to the RP it would be non existant.... period. ( and sadly there are only a handful of them)

One of the things that incited me most... in all this was the comment / opinion , which I have read reflected in more than one post now. That there is not way to have a conversation with an orc. *sigh* Orcs do RP....to set the record straight. they converse, they are not retarted, nor are they supposed to be incapable of dialogue. It is interesting that the ONE thing that I have tried most to encourage among those who make a new orc is the thing that is most often spoken of here. It is a common misconseption that because orcs are not educated.. that they are "impared" or "mentally disabled" Incapable of anything but grunting... *grrrrr* not true! Granted...many of the orcs on FK speak using Ouze and dis... because we want to get across that orcs are uneducated...and even when we speak in common we are never going to really be that good at it. Orcs do not sit around listening to Mahler and perusing the times But, We will speak! We do RP and do a lot more than grunt and scratch.

At the moment, we have a severe lack of players who are willing to make an orc because they have some of most limited resources ICLY ( I will not say they have less than the drow... because I honestly do not know) to Dalvyn , I am trying to change that, as are some others. We are only human and i know some of those that are working on orc things , like myself, have other things on their plates... in FK and in the real world. So I think the comments here were based on the current situation not one, that will always be... provided proposals are approved.

This is a bit of a chicken before the egg situation as... some proposals I had planned to submit for the orcs were on hold based on building up the number of interested players and, many are not willing to try to make an orc because of limited resources and player sentiment much like what we are reading.

We are all learning, as Oghma posted, and I am sorry I said things the way I did. The orcs are learning too... how to try to be a community, whereas we had been a lone orc or two who never saw the others. Please excuse our growing pains. That said... I encourage all who have orcs and play them to take into consideration the comments made here. Language is a huge barrier. Perhaps non-orc PCs could try to learn a bit of orc in the event that they encounter one... and the orcs could train up common a bit more. ( though all new orcs are now required to lean common to be faithed...some of the new orcs are so low level that they can not even enquire )

I will read and reread all the posts with suggestions.. and anyone who wishes to make suggestions can feel free to come here or pm and I will do my best to listen. I can not say the orcs are going to be a bunch of daisy picking sweethearts not gonna happen. But it would be nice if we could build them into a fair IC...RP "Foe" Anyone who wishes to Rp with us is VERY Welcome. I encourage anyone who has actually thought of making an orc to try it! XD please do not let past impressions keep you away. I felt a bit like Raona 3 years ago... and now I am here on the other side of the fence . That is not to say it is an RP for everyone...There are no orc paladins...*giggle* there is not a lot of "intellectual banter" but there is conversation, debate and orc vs orc RP. It will grow and change with numbers as will the resources the more we have interested the more we can do.

the cliff note version:

1. I am sorry I spoke in anger
2. The orcs are trying hard to build and change and we have a learning curve because we have never had to deal with this number before.
3. Please feel free to offer suggestions, I promise to listen. Im not a bad person IRL honestly. I hate Pkill rp personally and I prefer RP to killing.
4. please make orcs... and do not let this discussion keep you away from the orc RP.
5. If non orcs want to play with the orcs we would love it.
6. There is a stack of ideas on my virtual desktop... waiting to be submitted based on interest in the orc RP

Regards,
Ooma

[Raona]

I feel very bad for effectively having discouraged Ooma from her heroic efforts to energize orc RP - I want to clearly and specifically apologize for that! I'm sorry, Ooma. I posted the above before we talked OOCly in-game, but you read it after. That in-game OOC conversation was rushed, because I had to go to work, but my hope in it was to try to better explain both what I meant and my motivation for saying it. Unfortunately I fear it had the opposite effect and really bummed you out; then you read the forum posting and thought I put it up after we spoke.

I'm getting the impression that one thing that contributes to the chicken-and-the-egg problem between orcs and others is a communication barrier. Not many PC know orc, and it is an expensive challenge for orcs to learn common. This presents to me a possibility! There a gazillion grandmasters of common in the game. They can't make orcs fluent, but they can save them a bunch of coin by teaching them common up to the limit. I'm not suggesting they would need to do so willingly - maybe as prisoners! You could have an outright teacher RP, of course - that would be neat. But if any of my goodies was captured and put in a cell, teaching young orcs common is an RP that I could get into in a big way. I think it'd be funny and fun, and would not be entirely focused on conflict. The orcs might even let the poor sap go, saying "We catch you again when more o dah orcz childrens needs teaching!" [Sorry for the pathetic orc dialect...as observed above, I need practice with all things orc.] This could work with other skills, too. While Raona wouldn't likely teach orcs any battle-related skills, even at the cost of her life, her dedication to diplomacy would make her willing, if not eager, to teach them to communicate. Others might be more than willing to teach horsemanship or swordplay, if it saved them their lives and won them their freedom, though!

I'm going to keep trying to come up with RP ideas for orcs and non-orcs. This was a painful way to get to it, but I'm beginning to understand the challenges and why things are the way they are.

Ooma - one more thing! I don't feel attacked, I'm just very sorry that you did. I'm sorry I said anything that suggested anything to you about what you are like IRL other than that you are a great person, and a fine, dedicated player. I'd usually put this in a PM, but this post seems more appropriate at this point.

Finally - I don't have any objection and don't look down upon a confrontational PvP RP, as long as there is RP involved in it! I have to believe that there are players out there that love this sort of thing - it's just not my cup of tea. Clearly I was mistaken when I speculated that orc characters were created largely to slake that kind of thirst. Orcs are hungry to talk to the rest of us, not just insult us, then club us over the head - so as Ooma said - stop by, and with an open mind!

(But - I think, correct me if I'm wrong - leave the orcs alone during their war training parties, so they can focus on the task at hand?)

[Ooma]

.

1. All new orcs ARE required to learn common and train it as high as possible. which I believe in many places available to orcs is... novice or adept?

2. Trainers for common seem to be everywhere, to someone who is allowed to saunter into any city without causing PVP or IC chaos. There are not many places that, for orcs are acceptable, and not all trainers of common train very high. And yes, IC consideration has to be taken. We can not just saunter up to anyone in the game, even in cities we are allowed in, to learn things. They might run screaming away!

I can not speak for others...but I try hard train without spamming the language so its not that easy to train from inept to GM where I would have to be for someone to really understand me and I dont endlessly grind on the Shilmista elves for 30 hours to get coin... Nor do I have 2000 hours on this character like I do on some of my others ... and I literally have not had the amount of coin needed to learn common and my spells too. ( language was not a priority for Ooma as I was FMed at such a low level that I have had to spend much of my time trying to become .. stat wise.... what is expected of and HP. )

This puts us back to chicken before the egg. You see... it sounds a simple enough solution to many, for the orcs to just train your common so that non orc PCs do not have to bother. I know there are orcish language trainers in the game if you take the time to find them.


3. Orcs have an intelligence penalty... and some new ones... do not even have the intell stat wise to learn common! >.< so a young orc lvl 7 to say 20 would probably not be ABLE to train it...until they trained up and were able to get stats to put into it. That takes a while...

All this brings me back to... it is not as easy as you think to be an orc. ( which is why it costs kismet to make one )I am not complaining about that.. I am trying to explain it to those who think itmight not be a challenge. In my last post suggested that PCs who want to play with orcs also learn orcish ( we *are* trying to learn common... sooo.... if you try to learn orc we might at least be able to meet in the middle should another encounter happen. )

question... ( cause I do not know)
Would a pallie not ICLY be expected to be prepared to meet major foes by learning a bit of their language? Just a question....


4. A PC teaching of orcs is an interesting proposition ...And is not something I would not frown upon so long as it was ICLY appropriate for the orc both faith wise and "kulture" wise. As, orcs would not pay much attention to anything an elf had to offer to teach...regardless. Nor would they seek to learn from followers of their faith enemies. (i.e. Lloth) and of course this only trains to inept. Most of the orcs you RPd with have common at higher than inept already :p believe it or not! lol ( with the exception of one of the orcs) my common is at ... adept I believe. SO you are actually encountering orcs who HAVE trained the language! lol

Honestly...after all this... I would be afraid that the PC captured and asked to train, would still feel they got a bad deal RP wise by being captured. Keep in mind that without a lot of osay or oocly planned stuff... For an orc/orcs to actually capture someone they would have to prevail somehow... and that really leads us back to the big bad orc bullies.

In truth, I am not sure I know how to make other PCs oocly comfortable with any encounter now. this is what I am trying to express... There is so much ooc animosity from non orc players brewing about the orcs that I am not sure how to get around it anymore other than to be un-IC and avoid pvp period.

And yes, this idea might even have been and interesting route in the former RP. However, the situation in question... had several other factors. It was impromptu and so all things were being organized and dealt with on the fly ( and trust me there were a lot of things.... that went awry for the orcs!!! lol ) basically... we were dealing with a lot of "stuff" on the other side!! lol ... There were a few attempts, that I recall off the top of my head, which could have sparked a bit of non violent RP but were dropped. Some were dropped for language issues, some for time constraints and some for IC motivation. But, the opportunities were there in this RP and we all might learn from that.

5. It was not a war training party he he...( war training actually occurs inside the camp in a special area that goodies could never wander into accidentally.

6. I would very much, like clear up any misconceptions... As we can not give the full open account due to IC info. The Rp in question HAD Rp in it...aside from threats and clubbing on the head. but hard to avoid even some of that when you are being confronted on EITHER side I am not sure Raona's char came in at a point that there was as much, as walking ito a RP confrontation mid-way is a bit confusing for anyone. I apologize that more dialogue and detailed smoting was not involved at the point that you came in... I will learn from this and try to not just continue on when more join in a RP. I see now that, that was short sighted of me and led to a lot of confusion on your part about what had taken place prior. Again I am sorry.

All in all, yes we have to speak openly about both sides. But, my biggest question now remains... How do we as Orcs get around OOC animosity when it comes to Orc - Goodie RP? At present I feel very...drained about it. Please continue to post ideas as it might spark others to do the same.

regards, Ooma

[Grafghur]

Training a non orc, orcish has been done a few times already. There have been many prisoners in the orc camp prior to this latest event

Though I would think that non-orc pc's knowing orchish should be sparse.

I personally think that it's good to have two groups not understand each other. It gives the encounter more depth and forces you to find other ways to communicate.

[Nedylene]

One of my best rps was learning orcish from a few of the old school orcs when we worked together on an old IC evil plot.

Also loved the few particular ones who called my HP pansy.. over and over and over again. O_O

Needless to say very very glad to see the orcs up and running again and when I get back to having internet at my house will be looking foreward to meeting the new orcs.

[Dalvyn]

Moderation ... again

This thread derailed from the original topic, which was about orcish background.

I would suggest that discussions about orc - non-orc roleplay be moved to a new thread devoted to that topic. Hopefully, a thread with only informative and constructive posts and no accusations, finger-pointing, or worse.

End of Moderation