Witch light

[Dalvyn]

Witch light ... is currently a spell that can create a ball of light that you can set floating above your head. With a second casting (actually, it's not technically a second casting but whatever), you can choose the colour of the ball. The ball lasts for something like 25 in-game hours.

That is relatively weak, especially in comparison with the permanent lights that can be found in-game. Those balls of light are mostly useful to low-level characters, and that is about it.

I would like to suggest the following modification to make this spell more useful.

1. Casting the spell no longer produces "a faintly glowing grey ball". The ball remains for approximately 25 hours, and still provides lighting (it would work like the current ball, the only difference would be the grey colour).

2. A second casting changes the colour of the ball into another colour chosen by the caster. Here lies the main difference. The ball would, depending on the chosen colour, offer an additional advantage. The exact advantage would have to be researched by the wizards (through practice, through identification, whatever); they would be comparable in power to a spell of the same level.

Comments?

[Oghma]

That would be an incredibly powerful addition to the spell. Each spectrum colour could affect abilities or skills. Maybe limit it to resistances and the amount of times per day.

[Kelemvor]

I like the idea and would offer the suggestion that it is linked to the schools of magic - though I'm not sure if Witch Light is a spell available to all schools at start.

If the ball is to have an ongoing affect and the above is not feasible, then I woudl link it with the player knowing other spells which would combine with the witch light.

eg Wizard has witch light spell and knows the bulls strength spell = +1 to strength

eg priest has the witch light prayer and knows resist acid prayer = +20 to resist acid

We have a number of colors and could mix and match stat, defence or resistance spells

I love the idea of then having to research the combinations to determine what is possible

[Duranamir]

I like this idea a lot, however i dont think each colour needs to have a very powerful effect, the real power is in being able to choose an effect you need at the time. Oh and it is still a light....


Duranamir

[Selveem]

Now, I realize I'm probably going to raise a few eyebrows here that this is coming from me, but..

eg priest has the witch light prayer and knows resist acid prayer = +20 to resist acid

We have a number of colors and could mix and match stat, defence or resistance spells

I think the post Dalvyn wrote was a great idea, with this exception (above). I really, really don't believe casters in particular need any more beneficial resistances. To be quite honest, the amount of resistances they can readily muster is already ridiculous in comparison to Rogues and especially Fighters. While I understand the power of the MUD has shifted towards casters, I don't believe they need an even more powerful boost like this. To add stat benefits like intellect, wisdom, charisma, strength, dexterity, hit points, movement points, bonus low level spell slots.. I think that's fine. I just really don't agree that they need any further resistances without allowing fighters or rogues the ability to obtain stronger resistance gear (manipulate a famous wizard's robe/belt/bracer anymore and they cannot just cast 'resist fire' on themselves at will).

It's already bad enough that a party can substitute a very powerful fighter for a moderate cleric so long as they have rescue. I don't think any further skewing of power towards casters needs be done.

This message brought to you by Selveem.
Paid for by the Association of Fighter Rights Organization.

Alternatively,
bring back Enhanced Damage and repetitive bash without shield for Fighters!

[Kelemvor]

erm.. hello... Witch Light creates a ball of light which can be used by ALL classes...

Which means that everything being suggested could be usable by all players.

[Oghma]

I do think it would be easier to manage the balls by associating spectrum colours with each property. Green means defense to acid, dark red means defense from bleeding, red from fire, black from energy draining spells, brown from earth based spells and so on.

[Selveem]

erm.. hello... Witch Light creates a ball of light which can be used by ALL classes...

Which means that everything being suggested could be usable by all players.

Who casts them? How long is 25 hours in game?

Okay, so a wizard gives one to a fighter. He suddenly has a little more resistance. A wizard with the ball is far more powerful with the 'special caster-only objects' because they can change them accordingly at whim which could supplement the 'small' bonus to a resistance and instead offer a very powerful bonus. In 25 hours it's gone. If the person using it is the wizard, in 24 hours, before it poofs, I can change the color (or just make a new one) and have the bonuses indefinately.

My arguement is still valid.

*Please note: I really don't want the 'special resistance set' currently in game removed from the game or even lessened in power. I just think the benefits of resistance items shouldn't be so skewed towards wizards.

[Lerytha]

Selveem, your argument hinges on the belief that fighters are less powerful than wizards and clerics? If that is your belief (and I will be glad to be proved wrong), I am afraid I don't agree.

a) both fighting and spellcasting classes have their own individual concerns and issues (component costs, experience issues and the old-fashioned yet reasonable lack of armour, for spellcasters; armour-issues, and possible combat anomalies for fighters), but I do not see any marked issue in terms of balancing the MUD

b) secondly, if the witch light runs out in 24 game hours (or other number), does it matter? Just get another friendly spellcaster to craft one, and then you again have your nifty globe. If anything, it would encourage roleplay between fighters and spellcasters

c) the idea of a direct competition between classes is somewhat flawed. We play on a MUD where there should be more grouping than one-on-one player confrontation. I am still of the opinion that PK is quite fun, but if one class can be quite powerful, then it encourages people to form groups when PKing, lending RP opportunities to many more

d) the power of a class in terms of PKing should not be used as an argument against ways to improve and revamp spells. A spell-change to the witch light spell, will benefit (directly), all clerics and all wizards. It will (indirectly) benefit all classes. When an idea is proposed, I am of the strong opinion a decision should be made on the benefit of that idea on its own. I am sure fighting classes will benefit from other suggestions in the future, but if all discussions and suggestions degenerate (I do not mean degenerate in a nasty way - I don't meant o offend!) into a sort of "My class is weaker than yours so you can't have that", it means everything gets stymied. Predominately wizard players might then oppose changes for clerics, clerics against fighters, etc, rather than having a unified MUD which accepts various changes for the better.

Interesting idea, regardless. And I hope my reply doesn't come across as too personal, Selveem!

~Ol

[Tavik]

Have to agree with Lerytha here. As a player of mainly wizard characters, I can tell you that they are not overpowered. Granted, they are better at some things than others, but that's the case with all classes. Yes, they do have a ton of resistance spells, BUT as Lerytha pointed out, that's really all wizards get in terms of defense. No armor and HP tends to be much lower than all other classes. Also, not only could you just go back and get a new orb should you lose yours, the majority of those resistant spells you were talking about can be cast on other people as well, so really in a group, a wizard could use those spells on the fighter to basically give them obscene defenses as well as some bonuses to attack. So, while this would be something given to spellcasters, it isn't ultimately overpowering because everyone can benefit from it.

I did have another question about this though: Would that 25 hour timer still be "paused" so to speak when the character isn't using it and is storing it in their pack? Or would that be removed and the orb has a life of 25 straight hours despite it being used or not?

[Sairaven]

I would think that 25 hours (or whatever) is 25 hours, from the point of creation. The only caveat I would give would be for a character being logged out / voided.

If the character is 'active' (I use that term loosely, to mean they are physically connected and in the game world), the timer is running.

[Dalvyn]

The "timer" would work as it currently does. I'm not even sure it's 25 hours long exactly (but that's my guess).

Question ... do you think that the colour/affect relation should be the same for all casters, or not? That is, should "blue" be +1 Str for all casters, or should we have several tables and pick one at random for each caster?

[Selveem]

Selveem, your argument hinges on the belief that fighters are less powerful than wizards and clerics? If that is your belief (and I will be glad to be proved wrong), I am afraid I don't agree.

Actually, anyone who has participated in sparring more than once in a great while knows this is absolutely correct. With the equipment, spells, and strength (damage) decrease of fighter damage output versus the damage increase to casters spells, victory is almost assured.

If you don't believe me, bring any fighter and I'll let my wizard have at them. You can't possibly win if I actually try. It's even worse trying to fight a priest as a fighter.

I'd like to address your post's beliefs:

a) both fighting and spellcasting classes have their own individual concerns and issues (component costs, experience issues and the old-fashioned yet reasonable lack of armour, for spellcasters; armour-issues, and possible combat anomalies for fighters), but I do not see any marked issue in terms of balancing the MUD

Fighters vs Casters:

Fighters have far less to worry about for 'components.' I would like to see things like whetstones have functional use to increase damage on weapons, but that's currently not the case. You're correct, but always remember that fighters armor is FAR (FAAAAR) more expensive. Try buying a full set of red plate in the Swordspoint Hall. That's not even magical. Further, if it gets damaged, it's going to cost you a LOT to repair. Repair costs are in another post, so I won't derail further there.

Fighters gain far more experience than wizards, but this means absolutely nothing once both have reached level 50 - this does not apply to the arguement so I won't waste time addressing it.

Lack of armor: Honestly, wizards, power-wise have FAR stronger equipment available to them. The resistance gear alone is far superior to Fighters. The only people who generally have high resistances as fighters are very old characters such as Selveem. This particular part of your arguement actually favors me.

b) secondly, if the witch light runs out in 24 game hours (or other number), does it matter? Just get another friendly spellcaster to craft one, and then you again have your nifty globe. If anything, it would encourage roleplay between fighters and spellcasters

If a wizard isn't available who isn't aggressive (meaning conflict is one-on-one PvP or current party wasn't able to secure one), what good is that?

c) the idea of a direct competition between classes is somewhat flawed. We play on a MUD where there should be more grouping than one-on-one player confrontation. I am still of the opinion that PK is quite fun, but if one class can be quite powerful, then it encourages people to form groups when PKing, lending RP opportunities to many more

I don't see why it's flawed. To suggest that classes shouldn't be comparable in power is a bit unfair in my opinion. It means that 'Okay, I play a rogue so I should ALWAYS avoid actually fighting someone or defending myself is someone is trying to fight me - I don't have a chance!' That's kinda crappy to me. I'm certain plenty would agree. We play on a MUD where grouping and adventuring is encouraged, but that's not the all and end all. Otherwise, we wouldn't have a 'Help PK.' Or even the option to attack other players, for that matter. I don't feel that gang banging is a good idea to address a powerful character (especially not always - sometimes is alright I suppose). Besides, if I made a group of priests vs your group of fighters, you're in deep trouble - especially if we just spam wave of exhaustion and you can't do a damned thing. Couple that with a AoE PK spell and you have a group of dead fighters. =)

d) the power of a class in terms of PKing should not be used as an argument against ways to improve and revamp spells. A spell-change to the witch light spell, will benefit (directly), all clerics and all wizards. It will (indirectly) benefit all classes. When an idea is proposed, I am of the strong opinion a decision should be made on the benefit of that idea on its own. I am sure fighting classes will benefit from other suggestions in the future, but if all discussions and suggestions degenerate (I do not mean degenerate in a nasty way - I don't meant o offend!) into a sort of "My class is weaker than yours so you can't have that", it means everything gets stymied. Predominately wizard players might then oppose changes for clerics, clerics against fighters, etc, rather than having a unified MUD which accepts various changes for the better.

I honestly feel that this should be considered opinion more than anything. The bullying effect alone should be a reason why classes should have more balance. If I play an Evil Priest/ess, I should think it's fair to challenge any warrior, rogue, bard, wizard because I know I can beat them no matter how good they may be? That's absurd, to me. Agreed, it may look like I'm throwing salt, but if you read my post I just suggested it shouldn't add _resistances_ in particular. The other things would be nice. Resistances are already something wizards and clerics have an abundance of and CAN also widen the gap in power between casters and melee classes. That is my primary concern. As far as I understand it, the power flow goes like this: Priest>Wizard>Ranger/Paladin/Bard (or maybe Bard is below them)>Fighter>Thief. As you can see, the caster classes dominate that list.

[Oghma]

Question ... do you think that the colour/affect relation should be the same for all casters, or not? That is, should "blue" be +1 Str for all casters, or should we have several tables and pick one at random for each caster?

I think that if we have a standard table of colour vs. affects it would be easier to follow. If we keep it like that casters may avoid making mistakes, though we will lose out on the customization of colour and skill. Another problem may be the ooc application of a recipe list, though we could keep the effects hidden or determined by colour ingame to be discovered.

Frankly I see nothing at all wrong with having a system that let's wizards and priests share spell effects or defenses with other classes that usually cannot benefit from more than one magical factor depending on the spells cast on them or the magic items they wear. I can only see the benefits of sharing this wealth, and not see the dangers of stronger casters in spars and pk. I find it a bit strange, fighters can dodge, wield two weapons, wear heavy armour, learn fourth and fifth attacks while other classes cannot, and now they will be able easily use these balls to gain certain defenses. That seems like a fair advantage for them.

[Selveem]

I find it a bit strange, fighters can dodge, wield two weapons, wear heavy armour, learn fourth and fifth attacks while other classes cannot, and now they will be able easily use these balls to gain certain defenses. That seems like a fair advantage for them.

That's easy. Dual wield and five attacks don't matter grounded. Dodge doesn't affect spells being cast at you. Heavy armor doesn't help vs magic damage (unless a rare piece of resistance gear is worn - and even then, it probably won't unless you are wearing enough to make you immune).

Fly. Cast 10 acid blasts from the air. Dead fighter. That's just an easy example. I could list far more. With the few resistances that fighters get on most equipment (and the removal of items that used to give them being made caster-only [basically all classes except thieves and fighters]) they do next to nothing versus the powerful spells. Even if I am 'almost immune' to acid, you can pwn me with it because resistances don't do anything (with few exceptions - only one comes to mind) unless you are immune or higher.

[Oghma]

I'm getting the feeling that this is about wanting certain classes not to have any abilities or items introduced that could be shared through all classes because they may make certain classes more powerful than others. Though that is a potential problem, consider these:

• Not everyone uses their skills for pk, people adventure and could utilize such things for adventuring and fighting mobiles.
  
  As the game is not pk intensive, the only time you will really need to worry is during spars and the rare pk, you could make ic requests for your challenger to remove the ball during spar or pk situations. If they choose not to in the case of a spar you could choose not to fight or to fight, in the case of a pk you may fight and win or lose based on those factors, but such is life.
  
  It is not always about winning or losing, it is also about role playing, a game. It is not about facing down opponents as much as creating useful advantages to adventurers. It depends on how you rp, how you approach others. Sometimes you have to look past the negatives and see some advantages.

[Selveem]

I see the benefits of adding bonuses to the witch lights, but I also see the (more powerful) drawbacks if resistances are a consideration. It is my opinion (tempered by vast experience on this MUD) that anyone who declines that wizards and priests are not innately superior in comparison to melee is naive or lying based on self-interest.

I don't want to see things removed from the game, but I don't want to see the game I enjoy playing further deteriorated by the addition of more powerful abilities for the classes already blessed with superior power.

My arguement (I realize I am repeating this) is only with the use of these lights adding resistances. A 'little more' resistance does jack for a melee class. As I stated earlier, unless you're immune or higher, spells will still hit (and some have no saves at all!).

Unless the saves system is completely overhauled to accomodate 'slight' changes in resistance as opposed to the current 'all or nothing' I cannot in any way endorse or agree with this particular feature. I don't really even see a need for it in a fundamental sense. There are other spells which require far more expensive components (such as continual light) that last a long time but have no 'special benefits' that are anywhere near this proposed idea.

I'm all for seeing things added, but I feel that there is plenty that should be fixed first.

[Glim]

Btw 25 games hours equals 125 rl minutes. The timer would only count down while you were wearing it.

I like this idea, Dalvyn. I think it takes us a bit closer to magic item creation for wizards and priests. Also, I think a standard color/effect table for everyone would be easiest. If it just created a color and chose a random effect, there would be no point in people researching and figuring out things by themselves. If you got to choose the effect and the color it would be nice for character customization.

-------------------------

Also, Selveem, please remember. Much of your arguement is based on current resistances, which, as far as I know isn't going to be in the game for much longer. Currently I believe it is trying to be moved to saving throws, which are more balanced.

In a way, I agree that casters are more powerful than fighters. I have played both. But, I do not believe this is the place to debate upon that. This discussion should be kept on the witch light spell and the addition that Dalvyn proposed. If you don't like that fact that it might give resistances, that is ok and debatable. But I don't think this thread is where a caster vs. warrior debate should go on. If you would like, please create a new thread to start a discussion on this?

Many good ideas do not get implemented because debates and discussions diverge from the main point and the thread gets sidetracked. I just want to try and prevent that.

[Glim]

Ack you posted while I was writing!

As I stated earlier, unless you're immune or higher, spells will still hit (and some have no saves at all!).

This is wrong, I believe. Resistances are on a number scale. Resistant and nearly immune are pretty large areas. Resistances usually do not make a spell hit or miss, but they will reduce the damage done from that spell. Also, immune seems to be misleading as it doesn't actually make you immune, just reduces the damage done more than resistant or nearly immune.

I have seen no code on this and it is just from my personal experiences.

[Dalvyn]

If it just created a color and chose a random effect, there would be no point in people researching and figuring out things by themselves.

No, you misunderstood me. I didn't mean that it would be random. I meant that the same colour would always mean the same effect for a given caster, but that the same colour might mean different effects for different casters.

For example, Glim's blue might always be +1 Str, but Dalvyn's blue might be +1 Wis and Spaki's blue might be +1 Dex.