Forgotten Kingdoms Forums

With the new code, it has greatly changed what fighters especially, should be wearing.

I think dex bonuses, across the board, should be increased for all armors due to this MUD's lack of ability to push attribute points above a natural 18. But perhaps I'll post that elsewhere.

In the meantime, I think the examine command should show what each type of armor is classified as. Right now, all you can see is whether armor is 'medium armor,' 'light armor,' or 'heavy armor.' Well, each 'type' of armor has different bonuses within those fields. For instance, full plate has an armor bonus of +8 and a max dex bonus of +1: A maximum of 9. Half-Plate has an armor bonus of +7 with no allowance for dex bonus. Both of these are 'heavy armor' but VERY different stats.

I would assume that the majority of the armor out there has a description, as to what kind of armor it is. It isn't too often that I have to guess what kind of an armor piece is, but then again, I don't get out much either.

I know this won't help you and the rest of the players out currently, but it was hinted that there may be some numbers creeping their way into our MUD in the future. Hopefully, weapons, armor, etc. will all have visible numbers depicting the physical values of them. For magical enhancements, I would be fine with keeping those hidden untill someone could either identify it via spell or a lore skill check.

Selveem wrote:I think dex bonuses, across the board, should be increased for all armors due to this MUD's lack of ability to push attribute points above a natural 18. But perhaps I'll post that elsewhere.

Why would this even make a difference? If you're wearing plate armor, you would only get +1 bonus to your AC for DEX, whether your DEX were 12, or 30. So I fail to see how using the current training limit on stats to 19 (there ARE trainers for this level) has any bearing at all on making some justification to raise the Max dex bonuses of any armor type?

If anything, the max dex bonus of armors is the most moot to someone who DOESN'T wear heavy armor, since some of the max dex bonuses, essentially anything over +5 are unattainable currently to players. So really, you've proven the reverse of your argument.

Actually, there are trainers for all stats up to 20 (though most/all of them require a quest to teach or are hard to come by).

Also, a magical mithril full plate is at least +8/+3. We are also code-ready for masterwork armours (i.e., armours with Max Dex modifiers increased by 1); masterwork armours not being magical items, it's quite likely that armoursmiths might be able to craft them at some point. We can also code armours of comfort (with max dex modifier being magically raised), but all that is going to take time.

In the next weeks, I plan to revisit all the areas and
- most likely increase the armour modifiers on some pieces of armour
- most likely increase the armour modifiers on other magical items
- perhaps add some "of comfort" bonuses to some pieces of armour

But all this takes a lot of time and, as noted in another thread, won't automatically fix magical items that have been renamed.

Kregor wrote:

Selveem wrote:I think dex bonuses, across the board, should be increased for all armors due to this MUD's lack of ability to push attribute points above a natural 18. But perhaps I'll post that elsewhere.

Why would this even make a difference? If you're wearing plate armor, you would only get +1 bonus to your AC for DEX, whether your DEX were 12, or 30. So I fail to see how using the current training limit on stats to 19 (there ARE trainers for this level) has any bearing at all on making some justification to raise the Max dex bonuses of any armor type?

If anything, the max dex bonus of armors is the most moot to someone who DOESN'T wear heavy armor, since some of the max dex bonuses, essentially anything over +5 are unattainable currently to players. So really, you've proven the reverse of your argument.

It's a 'benefit' of a fighter to wear platemail. A class 'bonus' that is supposed to help them. The way armor is currently coded, it is more a hinderance than anything because otherwise wearing platemail is next to worthless in comparison to wearing leathers or lesser armors. Most fighters will have spent points in dex because of how we allow bonuses in stats/level.

That means the only people that really benefit from the low dex mod allowance would be clerics - if anyone. The benefits of wearing platemail are supposed to protect warriors as much as anyone else are negated. Why wear platemail when it just hinders you? Most quests for warriors (and their higher tiers: fighters, paladins) give platemail armors.

Agreed, though.. Something like padded armor is next to worthless for AC because you can't train stats past (according to Dalvyn) 20 - I've never seen any stat trainers since the update a while back that allows training past 20, though. And I've done most quests in the game, been through most all areas, and pay attention to details such as these.

Studded Leather Armor gives a +3 Armor bonus with a maximum dex bonus of 5 reached at 20 DEX giving a total of +8 AC Bonus.

In the other hand we have full plate armor which gives a +8 Armor bonus with a maximum dex bonus of 1 reached at 12 DEX giving a total of +9 AC Bonus.

Although both bonuses look similar the fighter that takes the "heavy armor route" has an extra advantage since he can certainly put points in others stats, so certainly being able to wear heavy armor IS an advantage.

Which would be the point. Just because fighters of the old code pumped points into DEX and trained up their dodge because they all bought into the dodge buzz, doesn't mean that as we move to a more level grounded, *better* system of combat resolution, that we have to artificially raise the bar so that old code characters can not feel like their getting the shaft for those stat points spent. Making the systems backward compatible to where we don't have total PWipe, that in itself is consideration in an upgrade.

Sort of like when you get that new computer with the shiny new OS, and one of your favorite games no longer runs on the new computer. Do you trash your new computer and try to keep your old one alive? Or do you consider it the cost of moving upward and onward.

Every single character I had before the combat upgrade has things that I would have spent elsewhere considering the d20 comabt rules. Stats I would have shifted differently, feats I would have spent differently, even armor I would or would not have kept. I'm not going to scream about it, just like I didn't gripe because my wizard lost a couple renamed spells in the 3.0 spell system revision, because that's the cost of upgrading.

You could look at it as being a dual advantage. As a fighter with a high DEX, you have the potential to fight either light or heavy style at almost the same AC bonus. That's actually the POINT of the system. To make both types of combatants be on level ground, not make the big, plate armor wearing brute far superior in protection. This is fantasy... the nimble thief in the cloth and leather, or the she-priest in bewb armor, both have about the same ability to avoid blows in one way or another as the gleaming warrior.

Kregor wrote:Which would be the point. Just because fighters of the old code pumped points into DEX and trained up their dodge because they all bought into the dodge buzz, doesn't mean that as we move to a more level grounded, *better* system of combat resolution, that we have to artificially raise the bar so that old code characters can not feel like their getting the shaft for those stat points spent. Making the systems backward compatible to where we don't have total PWipe, that in itself is consideration in an upgrade.

Sort of like when you get that new computer with the shiny new OS, and one of your favorite games no longer runs on the new computer. Do you trash your new computer and try to keep your old one alive? Or do you consider it the cost of moving upward and onward.

Every single character I had before the combat upgrade has things that I would have spent elsewhere considering the d20 comabt rules. Stats I would have shifted differently, feats I would have spent differently, even armor I would or would not have kept. I'm not going to scream about it, just like I didn't gripe because my wizard lost a couple renamed spells in the 3.0 spell system revision, because that's the cost of upgrading.

You could look at it as being a dual advantage. As a fighter with a high DEX, you have the potential to fight either light or heavy style at almost the same AC bonus. That's actually the POINT of the system. To make both types of combatants be on level ground, not make the big, plate armor wearing brute far superior in protection. This is fantasy... the nimble thief in the cloth and leather, or the she-priest in bewb armor, both have about the same ability to avoid blows in one way or another as the gleaming warrior.

I apologize for having to be so very blunt, but could you please focus on the suggestion and not something that moves farther away from the thread? I was suggesting being able to examine WHAT type of armor something is so that a person can adequately equip themselves as their character would.

Regarding your beliefs as to what a fighter is in FK: Okay, then may be we need to define what a fighter is on FK? No offense, you wear plate you get your ass whooped with the current code. Far more than a rogue with high dex would. Also, you try to melee - good luck even hitting a lot of mobs. New code makes anything beyond second attack a joke. Especially with dual wield. Should everyone just play clerics and wizards?

Regarding my defending fighters: I apologize that I like fighters. Forgive me for wanting something for the class to make them worth a crap. Right now, they are practically worthless in comparison to the other classes. Especially right now, I can get my wizard with crappy dex's AC far higher than my warrior's. So, if a warrior isn't there to be able to take hits.. isn't there to be able to hit with a weapon.. what are they there for?

Role play?

More or less, I find roleplay more important than how effective a fighter or warrior can be in the current system. I know it is all good and such to be able to kill or beat enemies with ease but, in the new system, which i think runs well and works with the world much better than the previous ones. It takes into account the factors beyond stats and skills and factors in level and armour, resistances and the ability to choose what you will wear. It is more complex and rich in that sense, that my ic choices affect what I wear more than my ooc choices. I don't need to be a statistical person to understand that platemail is good protection, but it limits my movement, but soft armour is poor, but can be offset by faster movement. It is not about the choices you made to make an great and powerful stat fighter, but what you feel icly is best for your pc, what to wear, what to do. Even if you lose for it, even if you feel you should always win, sometime you do, sometimes you do not.

And I would not mind seeing the kind of armour type something is when examining it, if the int or wis is high enough to see it. Just to put this thread back on track.

Yeah, just don't bother roleplaying a fighter in case there is some form of confrontation that erupts.

Selveem, I really do enjoy reading your threads as it seems that you enjoy playing the devil's advocate. Not that you are any more right than the next person or that you are any more wrong either... they are just entertaining and you have a tendency to bring up some very valid points/objections.

(I know a lot of this is elementary, but bear with me)

From my point of view, a fighter is someone who fights well and can fight longer than a normal person. That typically means that they are going to have a high strength (damage, to hit, carry load for heavy armor) and a high constitution (physical saving throws, high hit points).

Because with the way RPGs and this MUD are set up, you are only allowed a certain number of stat points to distribute between your stats. In the case of a fighter, you would generally want to spend the majority of your stat points on str and con. Divy up a couple more to the rest of your stats, and that's it. Your typical fighter isn't going to have a dex any higher than 14 (+2), due to the fact that the points were spent in other places (and would be very low, in this case).

Heavy armor is justified by giving the fighters the advantage of not having to wear leather armor. Heavy armor is a good thing, a very good thing if you don't have much of a dex stat. In the case of RPGs, heavy armor is perfect for a typical fighter.

Now, in the case of FK and our new combat system: I can certainly understand why it seems that fighters have lost an edge on things. In comparison to the rest of the classes, they haven't. Take a 30 lvl fighter vs any other class (30 lvl), all with non magical armor, and the fighter will take the cake. Now, against a mob, things certainly are more difficult... FOR ALL CLASSES.

A fighter will still get hit by attacks, but not as often as the other classes. They'll get hit less and they're able to take more damage in comparison. They won't hit as often on the later attacks, but that goes across the board for all classes.

Bleh, I've already died on one of my characters and nearly another time, due to my 'newness' to the new system with a non fighter. In a straight up fight, I'd take my fighter in leathers vs my thief in leathers (same level). It's certainly not a shot at you, Selveem, but rather, an attempt to show you things from a different angle.

Selveem wrote:I apologize for having to be so very blunt, but could you please focus on the suggestion and not something that moves farther away from the thread? I was suggesting being able to examine WHAT type of armor something is so that a person can adequately equip themselves as their character would.

To be so very blunt, you preluded your suggestion with both a criticism of trainer availability on FK, and the (perceived) inadequacy of the max dex bonus of armor under the d20 combat system. So, frankly, that the topic digresses in this thread to those topics as well would first lie on the shoulders of the topic poster.

Calm.

Let's all hold hands and sway back and forth singing

We are the world, we are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day
so let's start giving
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day
Just you and me


Yes Dalvyn, calm is good.