Welcome to the Future - New Saving Throws

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Solaghar
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Welcome to the Future - New Saving Throws

Post by Solaghar » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:28 pm

The staff has worked very hard on moving to the D20 version of saving throws, and this is a thread to explain how the new system works and to ask any questions you may have. Here is a simple chart I drew up to explain how spells will basically function as of now. Spell Resistance is not yet functioning, a new version will be brought in later and until then, the current resistances will be maintained.

Code: Select all

Cast---Ranged Touch?---No-----
          \                   \ 
           \                   \
            -Yes---Success----Spell Resistance---Success---Unaffected messages
              \                  \
               \                  \
                \                  -Fail---Saving Throw---Success---Partial Effect?---No---Unaffected messages
                 \                           \                        \
                  -Fail---Miss messages       \                        -Yes---Save messages
                                               \
                                                -Fail---Hit messages
Almost every spell now works based on one of three saving throws which are dependent upon your class and your stat modifiers.

Reflex - Based on dex, classes like rogues tend to have high reflex saves. A high dexterity increases your reflex save, an extremely low dexterity can lower it. Offensive physical spells are generally those which would require one to make a reflex save, in an attempt to dodge or somehow get away from the effect. Two examples of spells with a reflex save would be fireball and chain lightning.

Fortitude - Based on con, classes like warriors tend to have high fortitude saves. A high constitution increases your fortitude save, an extremely low constitution can lower it. Spells which will attempt to affect your stats or resistances, or cause a system shock by causing a massive amount of damage of some sort are those which would require a fortitude save. Two examples of fortitude spells would be weaken which reduces one's strength, and disintegrate, which tries to disintegrate your body.

Will - Based on wis, classes like mages and priests tend to have high will saves. A high wisdom increases your will save, an extremely low wisdom can lower it. Spells which attempt to affect your mind, dominate you, charm you, force you to do things against your will, or turn your own mind against you are will saves. Two examples of spells with will saves would be sleep and cause light wounds.

You can find your own versions of these saving throws by typing defence

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  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 |     Armour                                  Saving throws              |
 |    Head: very good                          Reflex: heroic             |
 |    Body: very good                       Fortitude: good               |
 |    Arms: very good                            Will: poor               |
 |   Hands: very good                                                     |
 | Abdomen: very good                                                     |
 |    Legs: very good                                                     |
 |    Feet: very good                                                     |
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spells now function in ways they didn't necessarily used to. Saving throws for half damage are now pretty much the norm for many offensive spells. Races which previously could never be held, charmed, etc like elves, drow, halfelves will now be able to be affected by these spells, though we will later adjust the races themselves to introduce more bonuses against specific spell descriptors. This is merely the first step in a chain of alterations designed to bring us more close to the D20 system, and hopefully more balanced, exciting and interesting spell system for the players to enjoy.

Another big change is the standardization and recoding of 'ranged touch' and 'touch' attacks. A ranged touch attack is much like throwing something at someone, and an example of a ranged touch attack spell is flame arrow. They can dodge from it, but armor won't stop it from hitting them, hence your dexterity AC and deflective AC will assist against ranged touch attacks, while armor AC and shield AC and natural AC will not. A touch attack is exactly what it sounds like, reaching out and touching someone, examples are the 'cause wounds' type spells.

Hold spells have undergone a major alteration. They now function based upon the will save for the most part. Others that never used to work, like entangle, or web, or black tentacles, should now function like normal spells, i.e. if they miss it's because your opponent succeeded in their saving throw, not merely due to the spells sucking.

Rogues also get an automatic skill known as 'evasion' which replaces the evasion feat. With a successful evasion check, if you make a save for half-damage versus any spell, you actually take no damage at all. This helps to balance rogues against nasty spellcasters. Improved evasion is a feat which will later be introduced.

You will have to experiment, because old spells may have changed, and new spells might be more useful now. While going through all of the spells, many alterations to those spells have taken place, so you can not rely upon old ideas of how spells functions, though in general this applies only to offensive spells which your opponent might have a chance to resist. Bulls strength still works the same, while weaken does not. Take your time and get to know the new spells, if you see any spell conflicts with the help files post them in this thread and we'll get to altering those.
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Post by Hviti » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:00 pm

Do saving throws function as per d20? Specifically, are the following incorporated:
Base Save Bonus

A saving throw modifier derived from character class and level. Base save bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes. Base save bonuses gained from different classes, such as when a character is a multiclass character, stack.
That is, does how much a stat affects a saving throw also depend on one's class (e.g. if you were to have a rogue with high con, would that affect the saving throw as much as a fighter's high con)?

Also, are there critical hits/misses (is the throw based on a d20, with 1 and 20 being a critical miss and hit respectively?)
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Post by Zynarc » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:02 pm

What about inherent spell resistances? Do they exist and Is it possible to view them?
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Post by Horace » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:15 pm

I assume the saves go up as you level, and are not entirely based upon the attribute connected to it. My question is, are the bonuses contingent on the players "class" (warrior, priest, etc) always - or does the modifier change after joining a guild?
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Post by Solaghar » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:23 pm

Hviti wrote:Do saving throws function as per d20?

That is, does how much a stat affects a saving throw also depend on one's class (e.g. if you were to have a rogue with high con, would that affect the saving throw as much as a fighter's high con)?

Also, are there critical hits/misses (is the throw based on a d20, with 1 and 20 being a critical miss and hit respectively?)
Horace wrote:I assume the saves go up as you level, and are not entirely based upon the attribute connected to it. My question is, are the bonuses contingent on the players "class" (warrior, priest, etc) always - or does the modifier change after joining a guild?
Saving throw tables are based on the D20 system and are indeed both level dependent and class dependent. The added bonuses one gains from stat modifiers are the same whether one is a rogue, wizard, cleric or fighter. So if you looked in the Players Handbook or http://www.d20srd.org and tried to see what a fighter's base saving throws would be at level 20 in D&D, that would be what his base saving throws would be here at level 50. The additional benefits one gains from stats work the same here as there.
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Post by Horace » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:42 pm

That's what I'm a little confused about. In DND you can start off at Fighter 1 - so when you're at level 20 you have the whole fighter progression.

But in FK - comparing it to d20 - we'd have something like warrior 5/fighter 15...which obviously has different saves than the first.

I guess what I'm asking is, are the saves dependent on our choice of one of the four main "classes" in entirity - or does joining the fighters/rangers/wizard guild wind up changing that save bonus progression.
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Post by Duranamir » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:40 am

Has this change resolved the issues with Phantasmal killer, disintegrate and various other particurly nasty spells ?

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Re: Welcome to the Future - New Saving Throws

Post by Kregor » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:52 am

Solaghar wrote:Rogues also get an automatic skill known as 'evasion' which replaces the evasion feat. With a successful evasion check, if you make a save for half-damage versus any spell, you actually take no damage at all. This helps to balance rogues against nasty spellcasters. Improved evasion is a feat which will later be introduced.
If the feat for evasion has been replaced with an automatic ability, did we remember to consider that rangers also get this ability for free at a certain level?
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Post by Solaghar » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:46 am

Duranamir wrote:Has this change resolved the issues with Phantasmal killer, disintegrate and various other particurly nasty spells ?

Duranamir
Yes, we did. you should notice on the help files as of now, that such spells no longer have any warnings or admonitions not to use them against other players.
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Re: Welcome to the Future - New Saving Throws

Post by Solaghar » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:53 am

Kregor wrote: If the feat for evasion has been replaced with an automatic ability, did we remember to consider that rangers also get this ability for free at a certain level?
Hmm, no, we didn't. Seems here Rangers should get evasion after level 23, so long as they're wearing only light or no armor. I'll bring it up.
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Post by Kregor » Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:12 am

Indeed, rangers were able to train the feat as a feat, so it would D20ly proper to give them the replacement ability as well.

as I recall, light or no armor is a requirement for evasion to work anyway, even for a rogue
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Post by Japcil » Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:14 am

New helpfile titled Saving Throws has been created, if any addition information needs to be added please post here or make the necessary change.
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Post by Vibius » Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:16 pm

helpfile defence wrote: Will - Based on wis, classes like mages and priests tend to have high will
saves. A high wisdom increases your will save, an extremely low wisdom can
lower it. Spells which attempt to affect your mind, dominate you, charm you,
force you to do things against your will, or turn your own mind against you
are will saves. Two examples of spells with will saves would be sleep and
cause light wounds.
Being cause light wounds a touch spell which causes damage it might not involve a will save although I maybe wrong, scintillating Pattern would be a spell that sure involves a will save, otherwise all is perfect :D
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Post by Solaghar » Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:08 pm

Vibius wrote: Being cause light wounds a touch spell which causes damage it might not involve a will save although I maybe wrong, scintillating Pattern would be a spell that sure involves a will save, otherwise all is perfect :D
"Cause X wounds" spells actually are explained as causing your own mind to believe yourself injured and the injuries to hence appear on your body, it's assuredly a will save as strange as it may seem, which is why I chose to include it in the examples, because it seems kind of weird at first glance.
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Post by Vibius » Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:35 pm

My fault, I didn't remember it (too much FK and little D&D of late :D), what I'm sure is that "infflict X wounds" spells cause damage because they channel negative energy which is why these spells heal undead (at least in D&D)
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Post by Hviti » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:52 am

Is the "flatfooted" state coded (i.e. are there situations such as blindedness/meditating where one does not get a reflex save)?

Also, if there are greater chances to resist spells (especially offensive ones), would that lead to said spells having an increase in damage?

Finally, is there actual "dice rolling"? That is, if you cast a lightning bolt, is there actually a d6 or the equivalent that is "rolled" for damage, another "die" that is rolled for the save, etc.?
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Post by Solaghar » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:09 am

Hviti wrote:Is the "flatfooted" state coded (i.e. are there situations such as blindedness/meditating where one does not get a reflex save)?

Also, if there are greater chances to resist spells (especially offensive ones), would that lead to said spells having an increase in damage?

Finally, is there actual "dice rolling"? That is, if you cast a lightning bolt, is there actually a d6 or the equivalent that is "rolled" for damage, another "die" that is rolled for the save, etc.?
1. Although effects like immobilization from hold spells and such are coded and properly affect your saving throws, there is nothing coded based on sitting down or meditating.

2. There is no greater chance to resist, the spells merely act how they are supposed to. If some land less often that is natural, and if some land more often this is natural.

3. Yes, this has always been the case.
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Post by Kregor » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:19 pm

It is correct that, in fact, cause wounds spells are will save for half, curious as it may seem. The best IC rationale I can see for why, is:

The negative energy channeled is, in fact, real. But, what you are in effect doing is engaging in a duel of wills against the cleric trying to inflict the wounds. Since this is an effect of clerical magic, and WIS based, thus the will save.
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Re: Welcome to the Future - New Saving Throws

Post by Selveem » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:41 pm

Solaghar wrote:
Kregor wrote: If the feat for evasion has been replaced with an automatic ability, did we remember to consider that rangers also get this ability for free at a certain level?
Hmm, no, we didn't. Seems here Rangers should get evasion after level 23, so long as they're wearing only light or no armor. I'll bring it up.
I thought FK was scaled to level 20 maximum. Where Level 50 is technically Level 20 in D&D? Was Level 23 a typo? I would check my books, but I'm at work.

If it's Level 23 in D&D then I would think it irrelevant that they get the skill.
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Post by Horace » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:55 pm

Pretty sure level 23 would be the FK level - not the dungeons and dragons equivalent. Which would be about 9.2 levels in table top.
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