Revised teaching system

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Dalvyn
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Revised teaching system

Post by Dalvyn » Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:44 am

New Year has come, and with it, some interesting novelties. The new saving throw system described by Solaghar in another thread is one of those (which will later be extended into a new resistance system, which means that all things magical [spells and items] on FK will most likely change in the following months to use all those new goodies - but I'm derailing).

Another novelty that should soon come to your favourite mud is the long-awaited revised teaching system. With it come more options, but also more challenging choices and restrictions. It is not yet fully coded, but I'm already presenting here to let you ask questions and offer suggestions.

The current system

Currently, you can teach all the skills you know at GM, and you can impart only a small fraction of your knowledge. With the "teacher" feat, you can teach a bit sooner, but not that much.

The new system - an introduction

The new system is based on 2 axes on which you can evolve. The first axis is the "teacher" axis that indicates how good of a teacher you are. The second axis is the "scholar" axis that represents how scholarly your character is.

In a few words, better teachers can impart more knowledge to their students, and sooner. They do not need to be as much of an expert as others to share their knowledge with others; they do not need to have completely mastered a topic before they can start teaching it. They are also able to communicate more of their knowledge than others.

Scholars, on the other hand, have studied extensively not only how to do things, but also how things work exactly. Thanks to their extensive studies, they are able to share knowledge of more complex topics with others. They are also able to use every little information they find to improve their own knowledge and thus learn more than others from teaching. Some people say that the best way to learn something is to actually teach it; that's especially true in the case of the best scholars.

The new system - feats

The "base" situation is not much different from the current system, but there are many ways to improve where there was next to none before. The two axes I mentioned above are actually coded as feats. There is the "teacher" feat and the "scholar" feat and each of them can be taken/learnt twice.

In the following, I'll use Teacher-0 for a character without the Teacher feat, Teacher-1 for a character with 1 "rank" in the Teacher feat, and Teacher-2 for a character with 2 "ranks" in the Teacher feat. Same with Scholar-0, Scholar-1, and Scholar-2.

Getting those feats is not as trivial as just spending a feat point to buy them. When you go to a mob trainer and type "train", you spend money and experience and get your skills up. When you go to a PC trainer, you still spend experience to learn and get your skills up, but you do not have to pay money. This does not mean that the teaching is free though: it means that it's up to the teacher to make you "pay" for it.

Now, some teachers might just ask you for coins, but other teachers would ask you for services, or set up some master/apprentice relation between you and them, and evolve the whole thing into long-term roleplay. That is actually what we expect of in-game teachers: we expect them to spur roleplay in the game.

That is why most of the feats I cited above won't be buyable in game but only obtainable through special applications.

Now, when the imms get an application, they discuss it between them, share their opinions, comment about what they have observed of the applicant, then take a decision. This can be seen, from outside, as a biased process. I do not think it is biased, because there are actually many opinions expressed, it's far from being a single-person's decision.

Yet, to make the decision even broader and take in even more opinions, simple applications will not be enough for those feats; you will need to send in an application along with "positive recommendations" from characters. Those recommendations would be communications from other players/characters where they vouch that you would actually make a good teacher and that they think you deserve to be given access to the more evolved feats.

After all, the teacher and scholar feats benefit mostly others, more than yourself ... so if you play them right, you should have no trouble finding people who accept to vouch for you.

The new system - how it works

Practically, the command will be the same as before (teach <student> <skill>), but what you can do depends on your teacher and scholar feats. The system has a base case - that is, what happens when you have no feat; then modifications brought to this base case depending on the feats you have.
Base case wrote:You need to fill a few requirements to be able to teach: you need to be sufficiently clever, wise, and charismatic. Dumb, unwise, or repulsive people don't make good teachers.

In the base case, you can teach only basic skills. Technically, basic skills are skills (including spells, weapon skills, languages, ...) that are given to your guild before level 20. For wizards, that means spells of level 1, 2, 3, or 4; for fighters, it's up to third attack. That's enough to take a novice as an apprentice and teach him the ropes, but not much more.

In the base case, you need to be at least Expert in a skill before you can teach it. That means that, as an expert, you will be able to teach only the very basic. The more skilled you are, the more you can teach, up to making your students Amateur in skills that you have grandmaster'ed.

In the base case, when you teach a lesson, you learn a bit from it: while explaining things to your students, you discover new points of view, new approaches and your knowledge increases ... slightly.
The restrictions of this base class can be alleviated by investing into teacher/scholar feats.

Teacher-1. This feat is buyable in-game as any other feat and does not require special applications. You need to be charismatic enough to benefit from this feat. With Teacher-1, you can start teaching sooner (i.e., with a lower skill level), and better. You can start teaching skills as soon as you are mid-way between Journeyman and Adept in them. When you give lessons in skills that you have grandmaster'ed, you can educate your students into Novices (actually one notch above Novice).

Teacher-2. This feat cannot be bought in game, but only obtained by sending an application accompanied with positive recommendations from 5 different players. You need to be very charismatic to benefit from it. As a Teacher-2, you can share your knowledge of all the skills much sooner, as soon as you have reached the rank of Apprentice. When you teach people about skills that you have grandmastered, you can instruct them into Journeyman (that is, a notch or two higher than most mob trainers).

Scholar-1. This feat cannot be bought in game, but only obtained by sending an application accompanied with positive recommendations from 3 different players. You need to be both clever and wise enough to benefit from it. With Scholar-1, you are able to share your knowledge of more complex skills (including spells). You can now teach all the skills that are given to your guild at level 30 or before. Practically, that means up to 6th level spells for primary spellcasters, up to 4th level spells for rangers/paladins, up to fourth attack for fighters, up to circle stab for thieves. You also learn twice more from your lessons.

Scholar-2. This feat cannot be bought in game, but only obtained by sending an application accompanied with positive recommendations from 5 different players. You need to be both very clever and very wise to benefit from it. With Scholar-2, you can teach anything you know, even skills/spells normally not given to those of your guild. You learn much more from teaching too.

The new system - final notes and comments

Note that the broad ideas given about are more or less final, but that the details might change completely. Since it's a whole new system, it might be too generous/easy, or too hard/unattractive; the only way to see it is by testing it. We won't take any special applications in a first time, so we can see how the base case system works, then we'll allow them if everything works well (though there will certainly be a limitation such as: you must wait for 3-4 months between two applications). We might select older players who have been known for their "teacher" roleplays to test some of the new feats though.

Basically, it's still a work in progress, but those are the main ideas behind it. Feel free to comment below, ask questions, and so on. It's been a very long time in coming, so think twice before posting extremely negative comments! ;)
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Re: Revised teaching system

Post by Velius » Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:03 am

Well, would it be possible with be able to teach without having to be charasmatic? I know a few people (IC) that'd make good teachers but don't fit the charisma requirement (dwarves for the most part). If I were to walk up to a member of the Gutbuster Brigade and ask them how to raise my brawling ability, I'd be dumbfounded if they weren't able to teach me because they weren't nice enough.

Also, would it possible to allow class bonuses to the teaching system? Without a doubt a warrior would be able to teach Weapon Skills better than a wizard. Maybe people can add to this suggestion.

And, also, would it be possible for people of a same class/faith/proffesion be able to learn/teach from eachother due to the fact they have a somewhat common mind-set.
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Post by Solaghar » Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:41 am

Charisma isn't just being nice, or attractive, it's being able to convey ideas in a meaningful way to others, which is important for any teacher. You use the example of a dwarf being able to teach you something new about brawling, but he'd have to have the empathy to understand what you are looking for, the patience to try to figure out what your current level of training is, as well as patience to teach you new things while you're failing, etc. Sure he might be able to say, "Yeah just punch him like this!" and show you on the nearest guy to him, but if we're talking about in depth training, of the sort that one would get with a personal trainer or in an amateur sports club, it's a lot more than simply having the know how, it's being charismatic enough to get the ideas across.
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Post by Raona » Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:26 am

I'd add that for someone to specialize as a teacher, they really do have to have a talent for communication and the ability to make people want to listen to them. No matter how much someone wants to learn something, if the lessons put them to sleep, they won't learn it. You don't need exceptional charisma to teach things at the basic level, but if you've no eloquence whatsoever, you student would do better learning on their own than watching you, even if you are a grandmaster.
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Post by Nedylene » Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:53 am

This sounds absolutely stellar. Thank you for all of the hard word and I look foreward to utilizing this!
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Post by Elenthis » Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:12 am

Dont take this out of context cause its a joke...


Mickey from Rockey. THAT dude had a -6 for charisma. Good teacher though :-)
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Post by Jaenoic » Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:51 pm

The Scholar-1 Feat wrote: You need to be both clever and wise enough to benefit from it.
Clever and wise both refer to the wisdom stat. Do you mean clever and intelligent, thus requiring both WIS and INT? Or is this just dependent on WIS?
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Post by Dalvyn » Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:13 pm

Yes, I see "clever" as Intelligence-based.
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Post by Vibius » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:42 am

About positive recommendations...

Should characters ask OOCly for them while in FK or characters who have been learning from a character send spontaneously a positive recommendations to a email address?.

For example if I have a character that thinks that another character could qualify for scholar but if he never asks me for it, perhaps my positive recommendation could never see the light, meanwhile that character seeks for recommendations elsewhere.
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Post by Dalvyn » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:44 am

I'd think that you should ask others for the recommendations.

Also, I added a new option in the code that would let you check whether the teaching is possible or not by typing teach test Vibius 'witch light'. It won't do any teaching; it will just let you know whether you can teach them anything about a given skill. The idea is that this command would be used first, before starting to roleplay the lesson, which would then be concluded with the actual command (teach Vibius 'witch light'). That's better than roleplaying a lesson for 30 minutes then only noticing that you actually cannot teach them.

The code is ready, it just needs to be added to the game, then tested, then brought over.
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Post by Lathander » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:41 am

PCs can still only learn skills/spells on their lists correct? A GM fifth attack fighter couldn't teach it to a wizard, a cleric couldn't teach the heal spell to a necromancer, etc. etc. et.
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Post by Mouat » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:23 am

So um, my priest should not have 5th attack, backstab and teleport?
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Post by Dalvyn » Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:13 pm

No worry. You won't be able to get skills outside of your guild from PCs anymore than from mobs.
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Post by Belose » Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:19 pm

Wow. Mouat.. that sounds almost like Multi-classing.. which you KNOW we can't do in FK...hehehe...Nice thought though....what about a teleporting backstab?
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Post by Hrosskell » Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:03 pm

So, if I got this right, the teacher feats don't let you teach higher-based skills; only the scholarly ones do that? I know the systems new, but I wanted to point out that sort've discrepancy. Why would a better teacher not be able to teach higher skills, but a better scholar would? I just wondered, because I could see the character I have who wants to have an apprentice take the teacher feats, but not really the scholar feats - would that cut off his ability to teach the higher level skills?
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Post by Dalvyn » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:35 pm

Hrosskell wrote:So, if I got this right, the teacher feats don't let you teach higher-based skills; only the scholarly ones do that? I know the systems new, but I wanted to point out that sort've discrepancy. Why would a better teacher not be able to teach higher skills, but a better scholar would? I just wondered, because I could see the character I have who wants to have an apprentice take the teacher feats, but not really the scholar feats - would that cut off his ability to teach the higher level skills?
Yes, that would.

You can see it like this: to teach basic manoeuvres, it is sufficient if you can do them yourself. Simple moves with a sword can be easily taught. But if you want to teach more complex manoeuvres, difficult chains of attacks and parries and ripostes, then you would need not only to be able to perform those tricks youself, but to study how and why they work. All that study is included in the "scholar" feat. In this case, scholar does not always mean "someone who spends most of his time reading books".

Does that answer your question?
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Post by Vibius » Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:21 am

Another doubt.

A) Will Wizards/Bards able to teach those spells which can been learn by clerics to clerics, and the other way around? ie: a wizard teaching bulls strength to a cleric and a cleric teaching cure critical to a bard.

B) Even if it is possible, would be it IC?
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Post by Kelemvor » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:27 pm

As it currently stands, some prayers which are spells (and vice versa) may only be accessible on trainers who are of a different class. So the situation which you are describing may already occur with NPC trainers.

It is not really IC, but is a consequence of the difficulty in ensuring correct trainers are available for all of the 300+ spells/prayers in game.

I would say that for roleplayed teaching it should be the case that character's are only learning from the correct teacher. However, this would be the opposite of what is possible with NPCs. And it might well be that your teacher learned that prayer from a wizard to begin with.

Something for a general consensus rather than an explicit yes or no, perhaps
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Post by Dalvyn » Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:25 pm

Is it IC or no? Well... that really depends on your take on it, and, as far as I know, there aren't really any "canon" guidelines for it. [Remember that my main character is a priest of Mystra, so the barrier between divine and arcane is quite blurry eh?]

As Kelemvor pointed out, you can learn from mobs no matter whether your and their class match or not. This is done not only because it's hard to ensure that we have trainers for all the spells/prayers, for each alignment, for each racial group, and for each class ... but also because, in base d20/D&D, wizards are the only ones who need to learn their spells: clerics get to know them for free, and so do paladins/rangers/bards.

Considering all that, I - for one - would be lenient with the class thing. That is, there are plenty of options for mismatch between the student and the teacher; and class is one of the mismatches I would not pay too much attention to. In other words, I would rather see a cleric teach a wizard (or vice versa) than see a druid of Mielikki learn from a druid of Malar, or see a wizard of Cyric learn from a wizard of Mystra. And I think I can safely say that most imms would agree with me on that: there are other IC considerations that you should pay more attention to than class matching.

But it was a very good point to raise. Thank you for that.
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Post by Vibius » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:49 pm

I have another doubt (that could apply to another aspects of FK as well), although if this is asking too much I will understand it.

Having a character that might be interested seriously in teaching RP, how much is very charismatic, very intelligent and very wise?

If they are really high values either you plan your character making sure you will meet the requirements or you might discover that you couldn't qualify to be a good teacher
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