Chaotic Neutral

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:17 pm

I think it's important, at this time, to truly define what Chaotic Neutral is.

It seems there has been a lot of focus on percieved 'abusers' of this alignment.

When you think of Chaotic Neutral, what acts do you feel are within their realm? Are they allowed to sacrifice someone? Are they allowed to bind a soul? Are they allowed to apply to protect Silverymoon?

Are Chaotic Neutral characters allowed to have tendancies? To lean in one direction historically than another without actually becoming Good or Evil?

Vibius · Post by **Vibius** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:09 pm

This is what is understood as "chaotic" by D&D

"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.

And this is what is understood as "neutral" in the good/evil axis by D&D

People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.

My personal opinion is that a CN character is a character that doesn't do either good or evil deeds while doing whatever he feels like without caring about laws or "what they will think", as long not causes harm to others.

A example of a CN character is a bard who wanders the land living by his wits, he doesn't do either good or evil, while doing what he feels like to.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:20 pm

Very interesting and well put, Vibius. But surely that same bard can be seen as good or evil, depending on view. Society judges regardless of personal belief.

So, let's say that said bard is of noble birth and is not wandering the streets but occasionally graces some taverns with his presence and occasional music.

During one of his performances, he is subjected to slander and public humiliation by a drunken upstart in said tavern. Of course, being a noble he's far from comfortable with this sort of treatment.

Would it be within his character to extract any form of revenge on said patron?

I understand the general meaning of the alignments, what I call into question is the general practice on the MUD. What is the scope of actions that a "good roleplayer" who is playing a Chaotic Neutral character allowed to take?

Horace · Post by **Horace** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:21 pm

But seriously,

When i think of chaotic neutral i think of a person who embodies an idea...a very strong idea that is usually inherently against structure and something seen in such a pure state that it isn't considered with moral implications (something many people watching him may disagree with...but they just don't get it, right?).

Ideas that come to mind is the crack pot gnome inventor, who dumps all of his energy into creating things just to further what he has to work with to create something else...much to the dismay of the enemies who buy his grenades, though he sells the technology only to further his studies with no regard to anything besides his pursuit. In this case the "chaotic" isn't necessarily against written law of whichever city/nation/kingdom he is working in, but the laws of nature/chemistry/rational thought (thinking outside the box).

The general rule of thumb, in my book, is that if you're of "neutral" alignment, you're character's motivation is going to be something outside the agenda's of good vs. evil. A neutral character can have ideals that seem to favor good or evil, but the motivation for the actions are outside virtues or sins. In this realm you're looking at oaths, apathy, ignorance, brainwashing, celebration of an idea/element.

With anything chaotic i consider it to be against structure. This can manifest itself as uncaring of man made laws, or general accepted rules of combat (guerilla), or it can be a mindset that is typically against accepted truths. Invention, exploration, end justifies the means mentality (not to an extreme, but as a soft rule).

Anyway, I think with what the Imm/Admins said has weight. In that if you are of chaotic neutral alignment, it is no longer the chaotic neutral of 2nd edition...it's now an alignment that has an expectation of motivational reasoning. Sure, if you want to play a duuuuuh character as a chaotic neutral your motivation can simply be being a little dense and not understanding morality or rules, but only approval. But for every other character concept, I think there needs to be a clear motivation (at least to yourself) - as opposed to sometimes doing good and sometimes doing bad...that's the 2nd edition definition (jokingly).

Vibius · Post by **Vibius** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:42 pm

Selveem wrote: During one of his performances, he is subjected to slander and public humiliation by a drunken upstart in said tavern. Of course, being a noble he's far from comfortable with this sort of treatment.

Would it be within his character to extract any form of revenge on said patron?

Yes. As long his revenge isn't evil in nature

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:23 pm

"Evil" and "Good" is subject to perception. Social morality.

Murdering someone can be believed an Evil act, to some. But, hey, what if it is done for a good cause? I don't feel the need to be descriptive here as I'm sure anyone can imagine circumstances where this is necessity.

That's is the true quandary here. From the outsider who doesn't know the motivation of the character, the act may appear to be Evil or Good. They don't know the long-term goal of the character or the true cause of their actions.

That is the reason I ask for an FK's version of "Chaotic Neutral" to be described by other players (including staff).

Duranamir · Post by **Duranamir** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:02 pm

I do have a CN character and in general i agree with most of the previous comments, in his case i make judgments on things not based on his being good or evil but more on his relationships with people, so he may well be polite and helpful to one Lawful good paladin i know

, while avoiding or even getting into conflict with some other good characters, he also willingly has dealings with some that others consider evil. His reasons for this a clear to me the player but may not be to those who do not know him.

Will he aid others ?, yes if he likes them or considers it important enough.
Does he obey laws ? Not always, certainly not if they stop him doing something he wants to.
Will he do a quest for a good person, yes if it sounds like fun.
Will he do a quest for an evil person, yes if it does not sound too nasty or has an interesting reward
Will he fight for what he believes in ? Yes certainly but these beliefs are not alignment based
Does he care what most others think of him ? Not really, he only values the opinions of a few people.
Has he entered Silverymoon ? yes though with considerable trepidation.
Would he consider using necromancy ? yes though probably not as a first resort
Will he kill for fun ? no, killing is not fun.
Will he use sneaky and underhand methods ? yes if it gets the job done.

Does all this make him Chaotic Neutral ? I think so but that is just my opinion.

Duranamir (Who is Drow and therefore not Chaotic neutral by any means !

)

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:18 pm

This is kind of what I'm looking for, Duranamir. Thank you very much. These are the kind of examples I was hoping to see.

Horace · Post by **Horace** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:59 pm

Yeah but those examples are going to change with every different possible motivation for a neutral character...the only thing you have to make sure you're doing is staying true to your PC's driving motivation and that you aren't committing inherently evil acts (premeditated murder, some necromancy, sacrifice) without any consideration to what makes your character tick.

I'd imagine the problem is that PC's are resorting to evil acts, or directly aiding in a group doing evil acts, too readily. This can be a problem for IMMs and Admins because it's in their job description to make alignment changes like that...just like a DM in a tabletop game. It must be happening an awful lot for it to become an issue that is tack worthy.

Anyone can backwards reason any action for darn near any alignment. But there has to be some point where the actions affect your PC.

Caelyvar · Post by **Caelyvar** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:29 pm

I dont think its too surprising that I play a C/N character either *coughs*

But the way I see Chaotic Neutral is:

Laws are for those who need them. I do not. They hinder more than help and there are times when they do not get the job done fast enough. But I will obey them so long as it benefits me to do so. The moment they do not, then I will find a different method

Good and Evil are too hard. Leave them for the philosphers. I will take revenge if someone hurts my family. I will take an eye for the eye that is lost. But if you are my friend I will be true to you until the ends of the earth. Good OR evil so long as your not evil to ME. The words mean little, good and evil are in the eyes of the beholder. If you are evil to my enemy then you are good to me.

I always find a bit of insanity in C/N , its such an alien concept to the "Normal" person that it is a delicate balancing act between good deeds and bitter hatred.

I dont know if this helped, but it was sort of fun to write. . .oh and Horace GREAT picture.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:14 am

A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first
and last. He values his own liberty but doesn't strive to protect others'
freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges
traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt
organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be
motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a
desire to make those different from himself suffer). A chaotic neutral
character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is
not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it.

That is the D20 description of Chaotic Neutral, it is also the help text at "help chaotic neutral".

The Player's Handbook further distinguishes the alignment as "the Free Spirit".

Essentially, I am my own person. I do as I wish so long as I don't hurt anybody else in the process, at least not irrevocably. Deception and guile are fine, so long as the result is not desctuctive, and I use them for MY purposes, not some agenda or campaign of (anti) morality. I'm not going to gang up with a terrorist bent on destruction and ruining people's lives, any more than I'm going to join the noble paladin's crusade to eradicate the terrorist, unless he poses a threat to me, or those who I actually care about.

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:53 am

I think a good key to focus on in RPing a CN is, as alluded to above, personal relationships. If my CN doesn't know you, they don't care about you - whether you are a renown hero or an infamous villain. But the day you spit on his shoes, or cut in line in front of him, you've made an enemy. The day you spare him a copper at the tavern, or get the Watch to go easy on him, you've made a friend. It wouldn't be for life, CN's are volatile. But they don't care a whit about the emblem on your uniform, what you stand for, or where you come from, even if it's the hells. They care about your relationship with them, personally. They make up their own mind about you.

If you are standing the way of a CN, expect to be moved out of the way by the most expeditious manner possible. They won't kill you unless needed to get past you, but if that's what it takes, they won't hesitate.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:53 pm

Raona wrote:If you are standing the way of a CN, expect to be moved out of the way by the most expeditious manner possible. They won't kill you unless needed to get past you, but if that's what it takes, they won't hesitate.

Selveem is much like this. He wants results. When people have commented on his honor and he's had to kill them, I've been called Evil for this OOCly from others. This, also, is the type of information I've been looking for. See, from an outsider one could always claim "there must be another way!"

These are some of the circumstances I worry about from others. CN has a tendancy to be viewed "good" or "evil" by others and dependent on who views them.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:01 pm

A better question would perhaps be:

What actions, when made by a CN character, are "playing evil without the aura/restrictions"?

Nedylene · Post by **Nedylene** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:23 pm

Murdering in cold blood, blackmailing for the "fun" of it, purposely undermining people's lives, killing an entire village or training on elves. ... ... My personal pet peeve one... joining a certain guild that requires you to MURDER an elf to join.

Orplar · Post by **Orplar** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:02 pm

Elf child no less, here here on that comment. Get kinda annoyed when I find people in said guild, playing the goody part in a goody town.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:21 pm

What guild is that? (Feel free to answer in a PM)

Akiren · Post by **Akiren** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Chaotic Neutral is one of the hardest alignments to play in my opinion. It is just too fluid and open to interpretation. And especially hard when it's on a MUD where a great many people have varied definitions and no DM, like in a table top game where he/she can guide you to roleplay within set boundaries.

I tend to see CN characters as mercenarial in nature and are chiefly motivated by profit. Not in terms of coin (sometimes maybe), but rather personal gain in any way - it can be as simple as wanting to keep a friendship to as brutal as killing to save his/her own skin, and while commiting that act of atrocity the character will have to deal with that consequence as part of the RP - but does this really warrant an alignment shift?

While I consider going on a rampage and murdering elves (to get guilded?! O.o) taboo, I think it is important a player considers a CN's personality and motivations (i.e. personal outlook of life, philosophy, beliefs etc.) before even embarking on playing a CN. I think these two points are so closely linked that it invariably works in tandem. If these two points can be kinked out, I think it might be easier to answer what actions would be considered "chaotic neutral-like" actions.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:28 pm

On a mud, I think there is an additional dimension that is not that present in tabletop games: who you hang on with.

In tabletop games, you don't have "downtimes" with free time to spend as you want (well, you sometimes have, but not as systematically as on the mud). Who you choose to hang on with during those downtimes is to be taken into consideration too.

If you spend all your time dealing with evil characters, helping them (even though you don't take a direct hand in evil deeds), and if you systematically help evil over good, then you are not CN.

Similarly, if you spend all your time with goodies and help them over evil, you are not CN either.

Horace · Post by **Horace** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:42 pm

What actions, when made by a CN character, are "playing evil without the aura/restrictions"?

Assassination, necromancy spells flagged with evil on a sentient being, sacrifice of a sentient being

As far as who you hang out with, I don't think enjoying the company of certain people who happen to be evil or good makes you either. I see that only as liking those specific people...the connotation of a neutral as a morality alignment effectively means you aren't concerned with morality. While you may not condone getting drunk and killing some homeless guy, you aren't going to stop being his friend because of it. Plus on the "hanging out" front, it's near impossible for anyone besides a caster to know an alignment of who you're hanging out with...and a neutral character could easily not particularly care for priests or paladins or wizards who go around pointing out the sinners.

On the flip side, consistently being a go to guy for a group of evil PC's without any apparent personal gain besides "friendship", would be suspicious.