RP of invis and sneak/hide

[Dranso]

As of late I have been noticing a lot rp around invis and sneak/hiding that concerns me. In this post I'm not trying to get on anyone because I've seen this happen for all the years that I have played and may have done it once or twice myself.

Like somone flying and invisible. Would you be able to hear or see them? I don't think you would because more than likely they would be 20ft over you and the only indication would be a slight breeze at best but if there is a breeze in the room description I don't think you could tell if someone was flying and invisible in the room or not unless they smoted or said something. I think part of the problem is when someone is invisible and they walk into a room they are showed up as "someone." Given, that even though you are fidiling with something or talking you can still be invis. As for sneaking/hiding would you be able to light a campfire and cook things while hiding? Probably not, hiding doesn't equal invis. Sneaking, to me, has a lot of the same problems as invis. When you walk into a room you show up as "somone sneaks in from blah." And I think this intices a lot of bad RP.

I'd also like to point out the distances you are able to see people. Just because you can see someone's adjective 3 rooms aways, would you actually be able to see them that clearly? That would, in my mind, be the equivilant of a few miles.

[Selveem]

It's a double-edged sword, Dranso.

When I hear someone sneak in as Selveem, I assume they failed their sneak check. I then know someone's there and demand they show themselves (Selveem's style - doesn't believe in all that sneaking up on people crap). Same with invisible flying people. Just because you're invisible and flying doesn't mean there isn't noise involved. Look at most of the things people carry. Surely you could hear some of the things in your bag clink or something.

The problem, I believe, is when someone attempts to RP their SUCCESSFUL hide/sneak and a player attempts to take advantage of it. This drives me up the wall when I'm playing Fox. I succesfully hide and sneak in, a conversation continues, I smote something like 'smote crawls within distance, hiding behind a shrub.' EVEN THOUGH no one saw or heard it, because I smoted appropriately it's considered a give-away.

Now, the reason I do it is in case someone has true sight on or infravision or something else that may give away my location. It's not so every Tom, Dick, and Harry can capitalize on my wanting to RP properly and using it against me.

What this does is causes the person who is hiding and sneaking to simply refuse to smote _anything_ and just listen. If they do, they risk someone unfairly using their generousity against them.

I generally give people the benefit of the doubt. If, however, I know how they react OOCly as a player and know them to be unfair in these type of situations (AKA, have seen them react how I feel is unfairly) I simply refuse to smote it.

As for the "proper" RP, I'm afraid that will have to be the determination of the player and their comfort/trust in those they are attempting to interact with.

[Dranso]

What you said about things in bags clinking or the armour they wear, how would you know if they are invisible? The only way you could know is if they smote it. If they don't smote it, are you still aloud to RP it though?

[Selveem]

The only times I've done it is when the weather is nice, the scene is very settled, and there would be a reason for Selveem to pick it up. I have other characters who would be completely oblivious, but Selveem's not as naive and carefree.

So, again, it all depends on the setting. A wizard isn't able to sneak and thus, as I see it, trained in concealing even the slightest amount of sound like a rogue.

[Oghma]

I would love to see two distinct echoes one for hidden player characters and one for invisible player characters when they move in and out of a room.

I would leave hide and sneak as they are currently set, because I think they work perfectly in their echoes.

For invis, I would simply remove the echo of someone entering and leaving a room completely. As memory serves me, invisible means invisible. No one without a means of seeing the invisible should be able to see you unless you reveal yourself in some manner. That is how I usually play it. I think the current similarities create some confusion, where you have the majority of people assuming the invisible individual is actually hidden, which results in comments about how someone can talk and remain hidden. It would probably make sense that being invisible would mean no noticeable entrances. However an echo like light footfalls or such might be possible.

[Selveem]

The problem is, Oghma, that many wizards who use invisibility accompany that with flight spell and assume it's like an automatic hide+sneak - that no one will notice. "How did you know someone entered the room? I was invisible and flying. You wouldn't have heard my footsteps." Well, just because you don't see or hear someone doesn't mean you can't sense otherwise. Noises of rustling equipment, smell, the slight wind current created by movement (though normally not noticeable, I would think flying might change that), etc.

Now, even so, I don't think hide/sneak even should be treated like "wizinvis" (Imm command - generally undetectable by players), either. I'll say right now that I have 3 half-sisters and 1 half-brother. We _always_ played pranks on each other. Most of the time, that required subterfuge. Many times, I never heard or saw my brother/sister sneaking up behind me or hiding nearby, but I can "feel" them watching me.

If you don't believe me, try staring at people from behind and see if they don't turn around. I used to play a rather juvenile game in malls where you'd count the number of beautiful girls you could make turn around just by looking at them. 1 point for a glance, 3 if they turn around and stare back. (Shuddup! I was 15!)

Just something to think about.

[Mariela]

There is also the idea of taking into account your surroundings.

If you are 20 feet up over Ardeep....
Where the hell are you looking at? Why should you even be paying attention and observing the RP below? According to the logic that we cannot see you up high, you should not be able to see us below due to tree cover.

Unless someone is on a road or in the plains, you shouldnt' be allowed to hide and lurk on someone on the ground unless you are on the ground with them. Cause I am sorry.. flying or not.. you are still going to make some noise. And in the case of a city or even a forest, to hear logically you are going to have to get down low enought that there is a chance we will feel wind or other indicators that if you blow your sneak check.... we can hear you. We can feel you pass.

[Larethiel]

What with classes that are trained in moving silent and unseen, f.e. rangers in a forest/plains/wilderness environments? I assume as a ranger you just know and are schooled in where to set your feet and how to move in with your surroundings to perfectly blend in with them.

[Mele]

It's funny this comes up. The other day I was roleplaying in Ardeep. Some raises. Mariela was there, infact.

Someone SPAMMED the room. ATLEAST 15 enter and exits. Someone flies in from the south. Someone flies east. Etc etc.

I'm sorry, but geez. If you're going to fling in and out around a group of 4+ people you're going to hit a branch a tree make a rustle moving through the trees, something.

If you're trying to spy on a conversation get arcane eye and be done with it. You're going to breathe and move and brush things and wear packs on belts with buckles and ties that could all clink together. Hit trees, merchants stalls, cause breezes

[Larethiel]

I was adressing the subject of people that have no means to be invisible by magic Just the usual hide-and-sneak-commands.

[Mele]

I was adressing the original topic. :D Not to you directly.

[Telk]

Honestly, do you think that someone is going to come flying in at 60 MPH and catch a tree branch in the face? Or if a wizard is trying to sneak up on someone that they're going to adjust all their money and get comfortable in their armor? If you're flying you can be going just about as fast as a walk, or much faster, I guess that'd depend on the altitude. If I was a wizard and saw someone and I wanted to sneak up on them I'd just go slower. That doesn't mean that they're going to BLOW by you and you're going to hear them/feel the wind, if you're keeping a respectable distance of 20 feet and eavesdropping (which I imagine almost everyone would be doing if they wanted to eavesdrop) there is no way you'd be able to tell. Just because they're not rogues doesn't mean they're going to be tripping and rustling around letting everyone know they're there. I'm not a rogue IRL, I don't go around stealing and sneaking up on people, but I can still be quiet enough to not get noticed if I needed to, same for a wizard.

[Mele]

If your screen looks like this:

Someone flies in from the west.
Someone flies east.
Someone flies in from the east.
Someone flies north.
So'n'so says 'Blah de blah'
Someone flies in from the north.
Someone flies south.
Someone flies in from the south.
So'n'so replies to that last say because the time between flights is so little 'Blah bloo blah'
Someone flies northwest.
Someone flies in from the northwest.
Someone flies east.
Someone flies in from the east.
Someone flies somewhere.
So'n'so1 replies now too.
Someone flies in from somewhere.

YES. I do think you're flying so fast you're going to hit something.

[Glim]

Thats not really what this topic is about though, Mele. Of course if someone is entering and exiting the room 20 times, they aren't sneaking up on you and obviously you would hear something. But that is a special case. If flying was given a listen check then that amount of walking etc would eventually mean they'd fail it.

I agree with Telk, just because a wizard is not a thief does not mean they can't be silent. Someone who is completely invisible and has no floor needing to be walked upon could mask their presence quite easily I think. I actually would suggest that something could to be done with the movement code, perhaps something like a listen check on all entering and exiting rooms, not just those not hidden. Even when someone is not being sneaky, depending on the place it is quite possible not to hear them approaching you, let alone if they are invisible & flying/sneaking/whatever.

I don't know how these things would work codewise, but I could put it in D20 terms something like:

Listen check DC:
Walking - 5
Walking in noisy area (market, maybe a forest depending on the noise, etc) - 10
Flying - 15
Flying in noisy area - 20

[Mele]

As of late I have been noticing a lot rp around invis and sneak/hiding that concerns me. In this post I'm not trying to get on anyone because I've seen this happen for all the years that I have played and may have done it once or twice myself.

Like somone flying and invisible. Would you be able to hear or see them? I don't think you would because more than likely they would be 20ft over you and the only indication would be a slight breeze at best but if there is a breeze in the room description I don't think you could tell if someone was flying and invisible in the room or not unless they smoted or said something. I think part of the problem is when someone is invisible and they walk into a room they are showed up as "someone." Given, that even though you are fidiling with something or talking you can still be invis. As for sneaking/hiding would you be able to light a campfire and cook things while hiding? Probably not, hiding doesn't equal invis. Sneaking, to me, has a lot of the same problems as invis. When you walk into a room you show up as "somone sneaks in from blah." And I think this intices a lot of bad RP.

I'd also like to point out the distances you are able to see people. Just because you can see someone's adjective 3 rooms aways, would you actually be able to see them that clearly? That would, in my mind, be the equivilant of a few miles.

It's kind of exactly what the thread is about. Hearing invis / sneak&hidden people. Whether we should or not. I'm saying it's funny this comes up, because that situation happened like a night or two before it, and that yes, in some instances, you should be able to hear them. Like when something like that happens.

[Selveem]

In FK, there are no cross class skills. A wizard doesn't get a 'sneak' check - they don't get to make an attempt. Why should they? Surely a warrior doesn't. The same case could be made for a warrior in full platemail. Taking enough time, they would be able to sneak in if they knew which plates rub against each other when they move a certain way.

The question is whether or not it's proper RP to know those echos mean someone is coming and going. I say yes, because my warrior, Kadred, would not get pissed off if someone heard him approach even though he's wearing no heavier armor than a rogue would.

[Glim]

In some ways I agree, in others not.

Yes, I agree, that is the question. But I don't think that the answer should be based off of just whether it is convenient for the player being snuck up on or not. That is why things are coded into the game, to give us reasons to base a certain reaction off of something... or not. A listen check for movement would remove these little gray areas. Either you heard them or you didn't. That way, the wizard cannot go "OMG how did you know I was there?!? Im sneaking AND invisible! You roleplayed that wrong!!!". That is what I mean by gray areas. It would remove that question in the back of the player's mind that "Ok, hes flying and invisible, would I have heard him? I don't know... I have nothing to base it on."

And yes, we don't have cross class skills. But some things should be possible just because you are a normal person. You won't be as good at them as someone who has trained at it for their lives, but you will still be able to do it. A normal wizard should be able to have the chance of sneaking up on someone if they are flying and invisible. Only because it makes sense that you can and it doesn't make sense that you can't.

[Selveem]

I understand where you're coming from, Glim, but wizards have other spells for spying. I don't feel they should be using gray areas to cushion arguements for abilities they don't have. By making exceptions on the subject and saying, "well, in CERTAIN cases they COULD be completely undetected" is just like saying, "go ahead and do it. It's alright to roleplay this way because no one can argue with you."

So, does this mean that all of those mobs that I know normally are unaffected by detect invisibility (such as guard mobs) I should be able to just walk past so long as I'm invisible and flying? Surely if I move slow enough, they can't ICly report me!

I just think by making this exception, you open a whole can of worms. It forces a roleplay onto another player that may rightfully have heard the wizard and it allows abuse at the discretion of any wizard.

[Enig]

(Selveem)
The question is whether or not it's proper RP to know those echos mean someone is coming and going. I say yes, because my warrior, Kadred, would not get pissed off if someone heard him approach even though he's wearing no heavier armor than a rogue would.

Comparing a flying, invisible character to your warrior, who is presumedly neither flying nor invisible, and saying that both should be treated the same for the purposes of sneaking is the same as simply dismissing the idea out of hand. It ends up being a sort of circular argument wherein you say something like, "Invisibility and flying shouldn't affect sneaking because there's no difference between characters that are invisible/flying and characters that are not for the purposes of sneaking." Put that way it sounds pretty silly, but that's what I got out of this.

(Selveem)
So, does this mean that all of those mobs that I know normally are unaffected by detect invisibility (such as guard mobs) I should be able to just walk past so long as I'm invisible and flying? Surely if I move slow enough, they can't ICly report me!

No offense, but this seems more inflammatory than anything else. Obviously there's a difference between a legitimate use of a skill and the use of a skill in an abusive fashion. Just like you can't teleport into a temple and trash it for reasons which are not necessarily reflected in code, it could very well be said that there would be IC precautions taken against this form of intrusion, too, and I don't think this should affect the overall merit of Glim's proposal.

(Selveem)
I just think by making this exception, you open a whole can of worms. It forces a roleplay onto another player that may rightfully have heard the wizard and it allows abuse at the discretion of any wizard.

And!

(Glim)
That is why things are coded into the game, to give us reasons to base a certain reaction off of something... or not. A listen check for movement would remove these little gray areas.

If the listening PC had heard the invisible PC, he would have made his listen check, simple as that. The only RP being forced here is that people are being restricted by their skills/stats, which is universally true for all PCs.

I hope I'm not out of line for saying this, and, heck, I think you seem like a decent fellow, Selv, but I honestly think that you're allowing your disgruntlement at the various issues fighters are facing to cloud your perspective about this particular idea. For the record, I agree that fighers could use more sprucing than wizards in general at the moment, but that's neither here nor there in the context of this particular discussion

[Selveem]

I understand how you feel, Enig, but it couldn't be farther from the truth. I would go as far as to say that your remarks are inflammatory and accusatory, not mine. Your post is directed at me in particular rather than my ideas. My example wasn't inflammatory; it was an example. I, personally, don't care either way. I won't be baited into arguing when there's a valid debate here. I just wanted to point out the flaw in your claim.

That being said, onto the subject at hand:

I caution everyone to remember that MOBs are just as much characters as the characters we play. We _all_ play the same game (including the Builders' creations!). If I'm standing guard on my Fighter in the School of Wonder, for instance, and you come flying through and I see the echo, should I not react? Especially if I know someone isn't supposed to be there. Why not? An NPC guard would.

Remember that I too have a wizard. Now, while I may LOVE fighters, I'm not proposing the removal of anything that the code already _does_ support.

The fact of the matter is that there is an echo when a wizard is both flying and invisible moving into or out of the "room." The fact of the matter is that the player is subject to seeing these things. I don't understand how they should be expected not to act on them if the "victim" feels so inclined.

Comparing a flying, invisible character to your warrior, who is presumedly neither flying nor invisible, and saying that both should be treated the same for the purposes of sneaking is the same as simply dismissing the idea out of hand. It ends up being a sort of circular argument wherein you say something like, "Invisibility and flying shouldn't affect sneaking because there's no difference between characters that are invisible/flying and characters that are not for the purposes of sneaking." Put that way it sounds pretty silly, but that's what I got out of this.

Why is that not a valid comparison? Kadred's wearing the same equipment that a rogue would be. Selveem is wearing platemail. Technically if you spent enough time learning platemail, took cloth between the plates and the like, moving slow enough... couldn't you sneak up on someone? I never said it would be easy, just that it's not a feature of the code.

The point is that you don't see other classes trying to say 'Well, you may have SEEN me enter the room OOCly but ICly I didn't and this couldn't catch me!' The code doesn't support what you are attempting to say is alright, so why should anyone attempt to claim otherwise?

I think what we're all feeling the same way about this subject, just getting to it in a different way. I'm not saying that it should be impossible for a wizard to sneak up on someone. I'm saying that currently it should be considered at the discretion of the victim until something is coded to make that determination.

Please understand that my wizard has spied on people before, too. There was an instance where a certain female Fighter "knew" I was there when I flew into the "room" (which was along the trade route) while I was invisible. I didn't get angry OOCly when the character then proceeded to make demands for me to show myself, either. Sure, I found it annoying that my spying attempt failed, but I didn't proceed to argue with her saying OOCly, "Oh no you didn't! I was flying AND invisible in a place that is subject to plenty of natural wind, etc."