[SKILL] SHIELDWORK

[Kelend]

Is the Shieldwork skill functional at the moment?

I've been told that it was removed, that it no longer had any effect, and that it had been reworked and was wondering what exactly the current status of the skill is. And whether or not it effects the shield feats as well.

[Raona]

I was about to reply that the skill functions as indicated in the helpfile, as I recall testing it and rewriting the helpfile to reflect the observed behaviour, not more than a few months ago. But lo, I went to the testport to double-check, and it seems that at present a shield will improve the DEFENCE of all parts of your body, with shieldwork expertise or not.

Is anyone else more up to speed than I on the current status of this skill?

[Kelend]

Is the Shield Specialisation Feat affected by this as well? I notice it has Shieldwork as a prerequisite, but not sure if it is a seperate bonus.

[Raona]

I did some further testing on the current status - shieldwork skill seems to have no effect at all on defence. In limited testing, I also did not see it block any would-be hits, as it used to do. The shield specialization feat does improve your defence. I could not readily check whether the pre-requisite requirement is actually in place (I've not had time to seek out who trains shield specialisation, and can't readily find them on the testport).

I did find a conversation with Mask in which he confirmed that it was his intention that shieldwork be a pre-requisite for shield specialization, however.

[Kelend]

I had all ready trained Shieldwork in any case, it wasn't until I started talking about the shield feats that I was told that it's status was a bit..vague.

I was mainly concerned because Shield Specialisation is a rather expensive feat to train, and I wanted to make sure of the status before picking it up.

[Kirkus]

We should find some way to make this balance out an opponent with dual wield. Doing that would make it so that those who wish to use a shield could do so without fear of being abused in a pk situation because dual wielding is coded better.

I have done a tiny bit of research and have found some very interesting information. One of the oldest Fechtbuch, or combat manual, commonly called the Tower Fechtbuch, is a German manual written in 1290. It is a manual for fighting with a sword and buckler. For the purposes of this topic it says that shields can be used for a number of things.
1. Protect the sword hand
2. Deflect an attack which could leave the attacker open to a counter-attack
3. Mask his sword hands position
4. Attack either with the flat face or the rim.
5. Bind the opponents sword hand and/or buckler against the attackers body

I would say that the first two should be covered by shieldwork, and we should find a way to add in an attack of opportunity for the counter-attack.
The third should be a plus to attack for masking your offensive maneuvers.
And the fourth and fifth should be added/ amended as separate skills. I believe we already have a shield punch of some sort in game. That could be the punch with the flat face. Now we just need an additional shield attack to reflect the attack with the rim.

to sum up, shield abilities need to balance dual wielding abilities. More improvements for shieldwork!

[Harroghty]

Kirkus! You cannot mention Fechtbuchen and not drag me into this...

First, I can confirm that the shieldwork skill does work. It adds to a character's defensive score (displayed when DEF is typed) and you will, infrequently, have echoes about taking a blow on your shield. I have not been in game of late, but have seen this echo within the last two months.

Secondly, yes, the shield is a weapon of opportunity. Beyond this, the shield is used to deflect blows actively (not just passively as it is currently the case). No combatant wants to take a blow on his sword if he can avoid it; parrying with a sword is traditionally a last resort (I am talking traditional Western combat, not movie and TV silly sword fights or sports). It is best to "void" a strike (dodge it), then to take it on a shield, and then -and only then- to use the FLAT of the sword blade. Anyone interested could look at www.thearma.org or research books such as the one Kirkus mentioned or Hans Talhoffer's Fechtbuche (generally titled "Medieval Combat").

Having said all of that: I believe that increasing the chance of success for the "you take a blow on your shield" echo and effect is the most sensible, coded course of action at this point in time.

[Horace]

I'm sort of a mechanical opportunist (rules dickhead) - right now I'd suggest even with all the new dual wielding feats, that sword and board still wins the majority of times at high level (without taking into account shield specialization, and only taking into account dual fighter vs swordboard fighter).

My reasoning right now is that much of a dual wielder's advantage comes (at high level) in the form of assuming attacks past 3 have a fair chance to hit. This becomes very difficult to do with how the items are set up in the game, with there being very few magical weapons past +2 and only a couple magical items that give any bonus at all to "to hit" and STR.

However, on the defensive side, not only are more magically enchanted defensive items readily available and at higher bonuses (plus more than one or two that have stacking pluses) - you also have the high bonus of two steps forward one step back feat like expertise. With all this in mind, /plus/ adding a shield that very often times raises the AC for all but 1 or 2 body areas...you just can't make up that many extra attacks to overcome how many will hit you because of not taking a shield.

Now the dual wielder also gets to use these defensive pluses, but loses the shield bonus. So it's two AC juggernauts hitting each other once and slapping the rest because "to hit" just can't keep up with "AC" the way it's coded.

Heavy armor specialization and shield specialization will only broaden that gap...2nd and 3rd progression attacks rarely hit fighter/fighter, adding more attacks with lower bonuses won't put you ahead against other fighters - it will however make you a blender against nonheavy armored opponents.

In a PK fighter/fighter situation, I've crunched the numbers and I know sword and shield vs dual wield will come out ahead at the high level end. I'm mostly just here to defend sword and board.

During Kallias training shieldwork from journeyman to grandmaster, I saw no increase in AC. It is my belief shieldwork the skill no longer does anything of use.

[Kelend]

I'd be curious about what check is performed against shieldwork then, I got no echo about 'blocking' with my shield or anything, just a random 'You learn from your success and improve at shieldwork!' message while in combat, which I assume means it did something successfully.

[Kirkus]

So Horace, If I were to ask you 'Do you believe that Shieldwork should be changed?' you would say yes? You would agree that it needs to be fixed?

[Horace]

Nah, it doesn't do anything. That's exactly what it should do.

If you wear a shield, you get the set passive bonus (depending on type/quality of shield determining which body regions)....but, I'm also against varying degrees of damage based on weapon skill. That is what feats/enchantments are for.

Take it for what it's worth, I'm nearly always a pen and paper purist.

[Horace]

I got no echo about 'blocking' with my shield or anything, just a random 'You learn from your success and improve at shieldwork!'

I haven't gotten that echo since I've came back to the game about a month and a half ago.

[Lathander]

Just anecdotal evidence here, but I have noticed that when fighting mobs using a high level PC wielding the same primary weapon, my sword/shield combination is more effective than my dual wield combination. I'm not sure if that adds to this conversation, but it seems to support at least one assertion I've read above.

[Skeas]

It's been a long time since Skeas has gotten into a fight, but she very often got the "you take an attack on your shield" echo from shieldwork, which is amusing because the helpfile says that only fighters get the skill.

[Harroghty]

I had the shieldwork echo last Friday.

[Briek]

Yeah it must be doing something because on Briek I get that echo perhaps once sometimes even twice -each fight-

[Saranya]

Yeah it must be doing something because on Briek I get that echo perhaps once sometimes even twice -each fight-

*boggle* I was about to post that maybe it's varying class to class...but I guess not. I'm in the group that hasn't seen the echo in over a month.

[Kelend]

Well, I haven't actually seen the echo since that first time, and I always use a shield, so I'm not sure how it procs.

[Ramirus]

I saw the echo twice this morning, on a priest.

[Moloch]

As far as I know, this skill works much like haggle. It works for every class, only has a much smaller chance of working than someone who actually has the skill. Therefore, anyone wearing a shield has a small chance of deflecting with said shield.