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I would like to suggest that we bring back white titles for ALL faith managers, not just the priestly ones. This will make it easier for the newer members of the faith to find those that can lend them a hand, since they don't have access to faith list until after they are faithed.

I agree with this - though I don't think other classes should be called "High Whatever" but use the common high priest title for the sake of people knowing who the faith manager is.

I actually kinda like the High Whatever thing

It's just more personalized, and kills some confusion like "You're a Wizard? I thought the Demarch was a priest!" stuff.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

Skeas wrote:I actually kinda like the High Whatever thing

It's just more personalized, and kills some confusion like "You're a Wizard? I thought the Demarch was a priest!" stuff.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

Well, High Whatever doesn't necessarily indicate that it's someone that should be approached about the faith (anymore than a regular faith title).

Maybe finding something in lore, or even inventing a new title through RP within the Church, and then putting a note in the deity help file "Grand High Shadowmancer is a title given to the most devout and high ranking wizards in the faith of Shar." etc.

Kelend wrote:

Skeas wrote:I actually kinda like the High Whatever thing

It's just more personalized, and kills some confusion like "You're a Wizard? I thought the Demarch was a priest!" stuff.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

Well, High Whatever doesn't necessarily indicate that it's someone that should be approached about the faith (anymore than a regular faith title).

Maybe finding something in lore, or even inventing a new title through RP within the Church, and then putting a note in the deity help file "Grand High Shadowmancer is a title given to the most devout and high ranking wizards in the faith of Shar." etc.

High Whatever doesn't, but just the fact of the person having a white title will be self-explanatory after a little while in its implementation, i think.

Moloch wrote:I would like to suggest that we bring back white titles for ALL faith managers, not just the priestly ones.

Agree.

Also agreed here.

In most cases each FM white title is actually the name of each specialty priest within that given faith, but this isn't always true. To use the Tyrran faith as an example here -all- priests are specialty priests which are in fact called Holy Justices, Lawkeeper is only(and a fairly a low) rank within the Tyrran Church so -any- class may gain it. The same is true for many of the more strict faiths like Helm, all senior clergy members are referred to as Senior Steeleye as it is a rank, there specialty priests are actually called Godseyes.

Obviously that said it doesn't hold true for every faith, It would be pretty weird ICly to see a fighter FM of Tymora going around calling themselves a Luckbringer, because they aren't luckbringers quite simply. If we are going to have white titles for all FMs we have to make the decision, do we go Canon on this, or stick everyone on the samething and move away from canon?

Personally I am against moving away from anything which is stated in the FR sourcebooks, because it's a MUD which is meant to be a replica of FR. I think if this is to happen what needs to be done is each faith needs to be looked over, titles researched and then we can build up a database of the correct titles based on Character Class or faith.

We could change the titles to generic ones like Faith Manager and leave the fm the option of adding a more descriptive title in their title space after their name?

I'm all for it.

I agree and disagree with you there Briek. It isn't supposed to be an exact replica, but it is based off Forgotten Realms.

What I think this could turn into is a community project much like the deity helpfiles. Throwing around titles that can be found in Forgotten Realms sourcebooks, or even anything that may be home-brew and native to FK works perfectly fine. Some faiths have temple ranks that vary by region, or use titles that may not be used by another more modern temple.

Some will be easier than others, especially the more militant faiths where they are more organized. More difficult faiths where there is room for interpretation are those that are very secretive like Mask and Shar. Those lacking a strong heirarchy in favor of more individual achievement like Tymora or Talos would naturally have even more "home brew" styled ranks.

Because I'm so familiar with Helm I'll use this as an example..

Titles used by the clergy of Helm are (in ascending order of rank): Novice, Adept, Trusty, Alert, Watchknight, Guardian, Overblade, High Watcher, and Senior Steeleye (a title applied to all senior clergy).

These titles would be used in a multilateral sense by all churches of Helm alongside any individual titles that are native only to that church (When I say church I mean singular church, and not the entire faith).

Now this is set up as is because in canon you don't have fighters, rogues, etc leading faiths unless they are an outright "Chosen" of the deity (I.E. the Songmaster of Milil). FK is different in many regards to this because of the need for faith management outweighing that fact. There's nothing for melee, arcane, knightly orders, mercenary orders like the Everwatch Knights, etc.

What I'm suggesting is we all chip in and make a list of deities, and then subcategories of Warrior(Includes Fighters, Paladins, Rangers), Rogue (Includes Thieves, Bards), and Wizard (Mage + Specialty Casters), and Priest (Clerics, Druids).

For example, and this is entirely just an example,

Deity: Helm
Priest Titles: Novice, Adept, Trusty, Alert, Watchknight, Guardian, Overblade, High Watcher, and Senior Steeleye
Warrior Titles: Armsman, Shield-Adept, Trustblade, Watchlord, High Guardian, Lord General, etc.
Rogue Titles: Assessor, Agent, Vanguard, Reconnoiterer, Readied-Operative, Overdetective, Lord Chastener etc.
Wizard Titles: Analyst, Arcane-Adept, Watchmage, Senior Watchmage, Exhalted Controller

For the just "white titles" part you would only need the highest ranks for each area.. but from a roleplay perspective why not flesh it out for all members of the faiths?

Deity: Tyr
Priest Titles: Acolyte of Laws, Solemn Brother/Sister, Lawkeeper, Abbot, High Lord Abbot
Warrior Titles: Sword of Tyr, Hammer of Tyr, Just Captain, Justicar(divine champion rank) Hammer Lord
Wizard Titles: Magistrate, Law-magus, Overseer, Arch Overseer

Obviously at the current time Lawkeeper is the highest priestly rank but thats not actually canon, of course to save a great deal of confusion, I would just keep it as the highest rank. This also doesn't account for Tyr's paladin Orders and knightly orders I can include them but for now I think I should keep it fairly simple. I have made some of this up but most of them have come straight from Faiths & Avatars.

Faiths & Avatars: Tyr's faith is a closely regulated faith, Maverick titles are rare

This is why I think this is really important for faiths like Tyr, Helm, Torm, Red Knight etc

Just a thought and I know I am sort of expanding this thread well past FMs now. As you all know currently we have coded into faiths and on the faith list these ranks:

Initiate
Acolyte
Prelate
Inner circle
Faith Manager

now if we do the research on all of these titles/ranks there wouldn't be enough space in the 'chain of command' to fit them all. What I say in that situation is, there are often several Prelates, Acolytes etc in any one faith so there is no reason that the Faith Manager cannot get together with the faith and dictate who is senior of each of those ranks based on length of service etc and ICly give out those titles, that way the coded structure would still exist but so would another one within it so RP can be expanded.

To address the original topic, I like the idea of giving white titles to all faith managers. Now, if that is combined with the updated helpfiles that are being worked on for each deity, it really should make it much easier for faith managers to be found by their faithful, which is good.

To address the side-topic of titles for all the faithful, I am in support of Isaldur's idea to work on compiling a list of class-specific titles for the faiths, I definitely think it adds a bit of flavor to the game. As far as separating out titles within faith ranks(acolyte, prelate, etc), I would be a bit worried about an over-stratification(if it's a real word) of ranks. Unless, of course, it is something a bunch of people want.

Aveline's work to update the faith helpfiles may also help with this matter, in that each faith helpfile will list the names of that faith's FM's. White titles would help people to spot them, though. Might be a problem for faiths who don't wish to advertise their leadership? (This came up the last time this was discussed.)

Whatever is on the who list is IC information but the whitetitles have an ooc element about them too, mainly so that hopefuls know who to ask about. With FMs that RP it openly that is easy because all you have to do is ask around and you will get "Oh yeah I know the Vanguardier, thats Athon" but with say Yzelle you would expect that player not to shout out the information that she is Demarchess of Mask, so evils wishing to follow Mask would have to be a little more cunning about it, paying up with the right people etc and this is good! You would expect that and it could even be part of the test to get into the faith.

My point being that IC information gained from the who list should be taken into context by each player and only taken so far, if an FM wishes to keep her/his status a secret, people are going to keep quite, maybe by bribe or by threat etc

Wouldn't it be easier for in this instance to give those with the rank of FM to be able to set there own title in the place where race shows on the who list? And have a list of titles appropriate for clergy and other classes in here helpfiles so a new fm can set it there or if they don't wish to have it there toggle it off to show NONE or (race)?

It is possible, to have it toggle on and off with that white faith title, that way people can know when the faith manager is "on duty" or "off duty" same could be done with watchmen (IDEA!)

Yevel wrote:It is possible, to have it toggle on and off with that white faith title, that way people can know when the faith manager is "on duty" or "off duty" same could be done with watchmen (IDEA!)

I like the idea of different people being able to toggle it on and off, but I think once they choose, they should keep it on or off. I don't think there is an 'off duty' for faith managers. Whether they have the white titles or not.

As it is now, the leaders of not so 'visible' faiths, f.e. Mask or Shar do have white titles as well, thus at least giving the leadership away oocly.