Allowance of aasimars as rangers?

[Naida]

After combing the helpfiles, and using ASK with the help of Nerian (thanks by the way for the help), and now having looked through the boards, I thought I would bring this to attention.

Is there a reason a celestial being that can only be a good alignment can't join the rangers guild? I do know of one aasimar ranger, but haven't seen many others, and thought this would be a chance for unique roleplay as they are goodly aligned anyway. I know of quite a few druid aasimars, as they are allowed to join those churches that follow nature, and are automatically put in that group. So why not allow them to also be rangers, and protectors of nature as well?

Now, I am not sure if this affects genasi as well(I read something in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=73&t=8242&p=58451&hilit ... ers#p58451, but that was 4 years ago, and tokens were still in affect), and I am unversed in the realm of D&D itself, so this might be something that is more D&D based as to not allow aasimars as a ranger, or perhaps, it has just never been brought up before in either realm.

Is there an argument against this as you have to be good aligned to join the guild, and these are ultimately the goodly creatures(aasimars) out there? It might just be that I don't understand as to why there is a race restriction for rangers as it is as least to the targeted good races. I would get that an orc, tiefling, or evil aligned character would need to be checked for as it is.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

[Raona]

I'm sorry, Naida, I do not know the current status of this. I can offer some historical context, in that Rangers used to be far more restricted than they are currently, and that the transition to the current paradigm has been gradual. We certainly haven't come to match d20/3.5Ed rules on Rangers, in that they still must be good, which I think is a 2nd Ed. holdover we've chosen to stick with.

This is a mamby-pamby reply in the hope that someone more rangerly wise will say more.

[Tarven]

I'm sorry, Naida, I do not know the current status of this. I can offer some historical context, in that Rangers used to be far more restricted than they are currently, and that the transition to the current paradigm has been gradual. We certainly haven't come to match d20/3.5Ed rules on Rangers, in that they still must be good, which I think is a 2nd Ed. holdover we've chosen to stick with.

This is a mamby-pamby reply in the hope that someone more rangerly wise will say more.

2nd Ed they were also limited to Human, Elf, and Half-Elf. Drizzt of course being the magical exception. But then, Pikel Bouldershoulder was a Dwarf Druid, so, why not, eh?

[Naida]

I've done some research on this, and know that in the planar handbook they speak of them, also a god, Osiris has ranger Aasimar, but I am unsure of what edition it is, must be later. I honestly can't say I am pleased with the 'elf, half-elf, and human' response. Seeing as there is one aasimar ranger out there already, and a bunch that are druids, you would think, it wouldn't be so bad to bring it up to date, or even just toss them in. Honestly, restricted classes only hold the game back from further advancement, but that would just be my opinion.

[Algon]

I've done some research on this, and know that in the planar handbook they speak of them, also a god, Osiris has ranger Aasimar, but I am unsure of what edition it is, must be later. I honestly can't say I am pleased with the 'elf, half-elf, and human' response. Seeing as there is one aasimar ranger out there already, and a bunch that are druids, you would think, it wouldn't be so bad to bring it up to date, or even just toss them in. Honestly, restricted classes only hold the game back from further advancement, but that would just be my opinion.

I found a PDF online of the Planar handbook and on page 34 it talks about Planetouched rangers. But I am not certain what edition this is. The PDF file can me found here. http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/r/w/r ... ndbook.pdf. A lot of interesting info on Planetouched races in there

[Lathander]

This topic is currently under review and discussion by our Staff. A definitve policy regarding ranger race eligibility will be forthcoming once that discussion has concluded.

[Naida]

I look forward to seeing the outcome, Lathander. Thank you to the staff for taking time to post here, and let us know where things stand.

[Lathander]

The outcome of our Staff discussion on this topic can be found here:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15684

[Anvilin]

So what are the disadvantages to having an Aasimar ranger? All I see in making this decision is another limit on the roleplay that can be allowed. If you don't want a multitude of non-human PCs why not make something like this based on an application process and base the approval on an active character/player numbers basis.

Removing all restrictions on race/class combinations would eventually result in the majority of races being non-human with many advantages and few, if any, balancing disadvantages

Lathander can you be so kind as to outline what you have decided the advantages and disadvantages to be? Because I really don't see any outstanding disadvantage or advantage with an Aasimar ranger?

(((I don't know what you're talking about)))

[Aldren]

aasimar (not assimar). That is all.

[Naida]

I have a hard time not putting assimar sometimes <.< Dyslexia ftw!

Anyway, I'm rather disappointed in the decision seeing as several D&D books list these as being openly accepted as rangers, but none the less, if you aren't going to include those editions, then you aren't. Thank you, Staff for going over this.

I do agree with Anvilin, can you give us the advantages and disadvantages?

[Althasizor]

It's up to staff on this, but as long as people are giving voice here, I'm a little confused. From what I can see, the only sources that claim aasimar can't be rangers are the sources that don't acknowledge they exist. The ones that do, seem to promote aasimar as rangers (See: Planar Handbook). I could maybe see this if it was a more powerful race, but aasimar are essentially human as it were. So, I'm rather interested as to what the advantages and disadvantages are of being an aasimar ranger as well?

[Aldren]

I'm inclined to agree with Althasizor on this one. the ECL in effect for aasimar should offset any perceived bonuses that such a race would provide for the ranger class. With the ranger population in-game lacking lately (kind of an understatement), I don't see another reason to limit a class already suffering, IMHO. Again, though, I reiterate that it is 100% up to the folks who made this decision and I accept it either way.

[Tarven]

I don't know about here, but aren't the standard stats for Aasimar +2 to wisdom and cha, with no penalties? I'd say that quite well makes up for any ECL stuffs, though I don't know much about ECL stuffs, so I could be entirely wrong. =P

[Naida]

Yes, +2 cha, and wis, with an ECL of 2. So they start out as level 3 instead of level 1, and cannot progress to level 50, only 48.

[Tarven]

Yes, +2 cha, and wis, with an ECL of 2. So they start out as level 3 instead of level 1, and cannot progress to level 50, only 48.

Well, given that skills and spells here are based on an individual training system, and not based on level (from my understanding, maybe I'm wrong) this doesn't seem like a huge deal, for the trade-offs. A few HPs, sure, maybe a single +to hit, for fighters? Maybe? *shrugs* Like I said, not huge, imo. I forget the relevance. <.<

Anyway, Aasimar already get Paladins. If any of the planetouched were to be allowed to rangers, I'd think it should be earth elemental, over Aasimar.

[Tarven]

I'm inclined to agree with Althasizor on this one. the ECL in effect for aasimar should offset any perceived bonuses that such a race would provide for the ranger class. With the ranger population in-game lacking lately (kind of an understatement), I don't see another reason to limit a class already suffering, IMHO. Again, though, I reiterate that it is 100% up to the folks who made this decision and I accept it either way.

Ask Faye how bad this class is suffering. <.<

Don't get me wrong, I think there are a few 'key' ranger abilities (animal companions, namely, comes immediately to mind) that are sort of sadly missing. However, there are classes that need more attention than rangers. And also have much MUCH smaller numbers in regards to active PCs.

An ECL on this game (especially of 1, or 2) isn't -nearly- as debilitating as it is in tabletop, where you've got only 20 levels. In conversion terms, it comes out to like .66 ECL and 1.23 ECL, (or so. Even that isn't accurate).

In the case of Aasimar, for example, where they get +4 to stats overall, vs most races, and +2 over any of the rest (to my knowledge, and those have ECLs as well), that can easily compensate for ECL differentials. Add in the ability to fly for a feat (pretty big deal, that) and you've got a really strong race. Granted, the kismet cost is high, but veteran players can often eat kismet for dinner, and have enough left over for tomorrow. The simple fact is, new players are less common than older ones, and older ones have access to the more 'rare' races. This creates a vacuum of what should be the more 'common' races, because there isn't any incentive to play them. Now, however, people do. If you want to be a ranger, be a 'common' race.

At least, that's what I gathered from the staff decision thread. Sorry if I'm wrong, there, Lath.

My question on the subject would be more, "Anything about -evil- rangers?" =P

[Althasizor]

I hardly think that's a point there, Tarven. +2 cha and wis doesn't help a ranger, really. There are many different types of aasimar, many of them do not have wings at all to fly with. Also, it's more of a blanket argument against aasimar. What do their wings have to do specifically with rangers? Should they be disallowed as wizards, because certain aasimar can take a feat to fly? I should note that it comes at an extreme stamina drain, which makes perfect sense.

I think when Aldren said that he doesn't see another reason to limit a class already suffering, he isn't referring to the class' individual skills, but the population of them. Hence, why limit more people from this RP? If someone wishes to be an aasimar ranger, I can't see a reason for denying it. Actually, there are aasimar of certain celestial that are specifically stated to usually be rangers due to their celestial ties to nature.

The stat mods on this benefit both priests and paladins far more than they ever could a ranger, so as long as we're saying things that are supposed to be allowed are not, why not block those from aasimar for the sake of balance? It would make more sense than blocking them from a class that primarily uses dex and str because they get a wis/cha bonus and no more than a +2 ECL.

That's just my two cents on it for now.

[Tarven]

I hardly think that's a point there, Tarven. +2 cha and wis doesn't help a ranger, really. There are many different types of aasimar, many of them do not have wings at all to fly with. Also, it's more of a blanket argument against aasimar. What do their wings have to do specifically with rangers? Should they be disallowed as wizards, because certain aasimar can take a feat to fly? I should note that it comes at an extreme stamina drain, which makes perfect sense.

I think when Aldren said that he doesn't see another reason to limit a class already suffering, he isn't referring to the class' individual skills, but the population of them. Hence, why limit more people from this RP? If someone wishes to be an aasimar ranger, I can't see a reason for denying it. Actually, there are aasimar of certain celestial that are specifically stated to usually be rangers due to their celestial ties to nature.

The stat mods on this benefit both priests and paladins far more than they ever could a ranger, so as long as we're saying things that are supposed to be allowed are not, why not block those from aasimar for the sake of balance? It would make more sense than blocking them from a class that primarily uses dex and str because they get a wis/cha bonus and no more than a +2 ECL.

That's just my two cents on it for now.

I see what you mean about population of rangers, but look at population of other classes, is what I was trying to point out. How many active, truly active (as in logs in more than 1/wk for more than 1/hr at a time) thieves are there?

Second, it's not about the degree of bonus, or to what stat is benefited, it's sheer # of stat points I'm talking about. By spending 2 less points in wisdom, over your career, that's 2 more points you can spend in str, dex, or con. With no stat penalty balance, like most races. That's all I meant.

The wings having stam penalty? Didn't know. Hate to say it, but, maybe 'good'.

[Enig]

I've never been a huge fan of perpetuating this perception of a massive code advantage for aasimars/planetouched, so let's take a quick look at them vs. a human, using a ranger for a relevant point! Bearing in mind that I'm not trying to weigh in for or against anyone or anything except misconceptions regarding the balance of PC races.


Here are their basic stats/advantages:


Humans-

29 stat points
8 feat points
Max level 50


Aasimar-

32 stat points
7 feat points
Max level 48
Darkvision
The ability to fly (with 2 feat points invested, including the pre-req)


Let's take a look at a practical example of two rangers in action!

Code: Select all

                Lvl       Atk      Str   Dex    Con    Int  Wis   Cha

Human           50       20       18     20     17     10   14     10

Aasimar         48       19       18     20     18     10   14     12


                   Total attack               Avg.           AC /w              Damage
                   /w +1 weapon                HP             Studded          /w scimitar
                                          (/w d10 in FK)
Human             25/20/15/10                  425                18            1-6+5 18/3x
  
Aasimar           24/19/14/ 9                  456                18            1-6+5 18/3x

So, grand scheme of things, I don't think either race has a particularly compelling advantage: it comes down to whether you'd like a few more stats (in this case converted into a modest hp advantage) and darkvision vs. +1 attack and a extra feat point. It can go either way, depending on which you value more, but I would hardly say that the aasimar character is compellingly more powerful than the human in the above scenario.


As for the 0.66 or 1.23 ECL, no idea what you're on about: Aasimar in d20 SRD have a +1 level adjustment recalculated to +2.5 for FK (ie. 20*2.5=50) and then rounded down to +2. All the ECLs in FK are adjusted in a similar fashion, so drow, for instance, have an ECL of 2*2.5=+5.

Clarifying one point from above, aasimar have +3 stats overall rather than +4 because they also lose out on a feat point gained at level 50.