[RACE] Mountain Orc

[Alitar]

Mountain Orcs appear to match SRD in most ways, however it seems they have a +2 level adjustment instead of a +0 level adjustment. Does anyone know why this is? They're rather difficult and I think they ought to be a bit more numerous than they seem to be as a playerbase.

[Harroghty]

I am not the mechanics guy to discuss the ECL but, from my perspective, I would just ask why you believe that orc PCs should be more numerous?

[Alitar]

I suppose the belief is somewhat rooted in canon. Orcs number in the millions along the Spine of the World alone and we have mobiles that reflect that, but I'd like to see a few more PC orcs to reflect it as well. It seems to come down to my having only met one PC orc outside of the newbie area and it feels like a flavour that we could stand to have more of.

[Philias]

Just wait for that goblin guys....

[Enig]

Just double-checked 'Races of Faerun' and as for the coded part, he's right - mountain orcs shouldn't be getting a +2 to ECL. Most likely there was a mix-up and they were given it alongside grey orcs, who ought to be getting it. I removed the ECL as revision #458.

[Tyeslan]

I believe the reason orcs aren't numerous here is because they are hard to play. They are not friendly, they do attack a lot of people, and are basically nomads instead of tribes here. There have been a few famous orcs around, and they still are from time to time, but really nobody plays them due to the fact that you are alone more often than not. It's not always easy being a monster!

[Isolrem]

Coming back to the level adjustment, I see no reason for mountain orcs to deviate from SRD, and would like to see that amended..

[Alitar]

Just double-checked 'Races of Faerun' and as for the coded part, he's right - mountain orcs shouldn't be getting a +2 to ECL. Most likely there was a mix-up and they were given it alongside grey orcs, who ought to be getting it. I removed the ECL as revision #458.

It's possible that Gray Orcs might need an adjustment as well. They're supposed to recieve +1 ECL.

[Nylo]

A level in tabletop is equal to 2.5 of ours - thus that +1 translates to +2.5, and is rounded down.

[Alitar]

I removed the ECL as revision #458.

I don't rightly know how this works, but the change hasn't made it to the server. Is this still waiting an approval or do characters made before the change require adjustment? Thank you!

[Raona]

It looks like both the game and test ports are behind on race revision synchronizations. Having just come back, I don't want to update them unilaterally in case there is a reason for that. But the change is "in the queue" and just needs to be copied over to the ports to make it take effect. That has not been done yet (sometimes for good reason, that's why I'm not doing it without checking first).

[Mele]

It seems like there's some discrepancies between the test port logs, and the staff discussion about mountain orcs.

We have decided that on FK, mountain orcs will keep their ECL. As per anything, in the future this could change, however we feel that the bonuses offered to the race measure with the ECL choices we have kept up with for FK.

[Xryon]

I'd be curious as to some details as far as that discussion goes. Not trying to be a jerk, but I'd say the disadvantages you face as an orc more than make up for whatever bonuses they get. What exactly is it that makes the ECL necessary?

[Bellayana]

Orc's do have a hard time, but they should have a hard time. The ECL can be a hard time...and make the leveling process slower. Orcs should progress slowly, as they can mess up many other fighters.

[Athon]

The loss of 2 stats and a feat do not compensate for the +1 level adjustment (and another stat loss). Sure, you can have an orc with 20 STR, but that really isn't that OP and could be 100% countered if we actually made 20 STR trainers available, like they should.

[Kaaurk]

I would have liked to have seen the ECL fixed for mountain orcs I'm fairly disappointed by the staffs decision.

[Alitar]

That's unfortunate. I had felt it would be an appropriate fix.

[Selveem]

My vote is for the revision and against deviation. As Athon summed up quite perfectly, there is absolutely no rational reason that Orcs should be hobbled. They're not even powerful races (with exceptions for, perhaps, Orogs) for their tradeoffs.

If the interest is in the reduction of prevalence of an evil race, I'm sure there are much better ways we could go about this.

[Nimboro]

In my opinion, the ECL for mountain orcs should be removed. We already have one heck of a time doing anything around the camp, due to Shilmista being a deadly place to train if you take a wrong step. (Namely to the room with the dwarf, elf, and human all meeting. This is done super easy, and messes up just about anyone trying to retrieve a corpse.) It's not easy for us to get around either. We can't get our worgs till level twenty or so (If I recall when I got mine on Vuurug), which means it becomes horribly hard for us to get to a good place to level, and then travel to somewhere safe to train our level when the time comes (Again, very few orc friendly places). Not to mention constant threat by 99% of the playerbase, because who in their right mind is orc friendly? So for those of you who think that an orc leveling a smidgen faster, and growing into power is a bad thing? Look at all these cons to the race. We are walking targets, without the ability to get stronger at the same pace as most of the races played, we are going to be left behind, outgunned, and people are going to have a generally bad time and be turned off from playing orcs instead of enjoying them and orcish culture. So why not remove the ECL? What is it honestly going to hurt? There are.. what.. Two of us on at any given time, if we're lucky? It's not a game breaking change to make, but it does make orcs a tad easier, and by extension, a tad more fun to play so the newbies I'm constantly equipping don't get frustrated and give up.

Thats it, end of rant. Hope that I brought up at least one or two good points... Glory to da' un-eye!

[Alitar]

The loss of 2 stats and a feat do not compensate for the +1 level adjustment (and another stat loss).

+2 level adjustment, actually. And you forgot the feat you're forced to spend in order to see in lighted rooms.

I fear I humbly and respectfully disagree with the Staff's decision on this matter and I beg thee reconsider. I wrote alot regarding why I feel Orcs should not have the ECL, then I deleted it, rewrote it, and deleted it once more(did this x5 at least). I can give a number of reasons but really it comes down to a very simple core rule in D&D ECL measuring which is class suitability.

Orc fighter beats Elven fighter. Elven wizard beats Orc wizard. That is how things are meant to be. Races have things they're good at, and things they're bad it, just as classes do. However... to give an ECL to Orcs is to greatly neglect every Orc class apart from fighter. Orc wizards, Orc shamans, Orc rogues... Orcs aren't meant to excel at these but they're not meant to play like a joke either. No character is. Gnomes and Elves make better wizards than fighters. Humans are fair all around. Every class should be considered before issuing an ECL and I fear in this instance, I don't believe they were.

(NOTE: All instances of the word Orc in the above refers specifically to Mountain Orcs.)


On a similar topic...
Can anyone confirm whether or not Gray Orcs recieve sprint and track+detect hidden? I imagine these would be the FK equivalence to gain the affects of Long Gait and Scent which are two of the biggest reasons that Gray Orcs have an ECL at all.