Mithril Hall current situation regarding non dwarves

[Brar]

Hey there, the annoying gyu coming again.

I was wondering about what the current situation about MH regarding non dwarves.

The last stance I know of is MH is strickly forbidden to any non-dwarf, I may be outdated.

Considering the newly connection with the underdark (and the missing of any reactive guards) and the "easy" accessibility (you don't have to know the "howto" anymore and thus don't have to use ooc knowledge to enter and thus have to cheat to enter), what would be the politics about finding someone non dwarf in MH?

Also, what about an starved, out of spells adventuring party with a dwarf that are near MH, can the dwarf let them enter to rest and resupply?

Now that there is no more "Mithril" items in the Halls, would it be so bad as to let anyone enter like it was the case before the abuse of mithril by certain peoples (who are not playing anymore anyway).

Also, would the dwarves let goodly adventurers rot in the Underdark
at their door without letting them enter??

Last, if we want to keep MH closed, then there should be some guards near the entrance because right now, it's purely and simply open to anyone.

I'm willing to have an open debate about all those points and the others you could come with...

Thank you for reading,
Brar

[Nysan]

Allow me...

1. The policy for non-dwarves entering MH is unchanged: You are not allowed.

2. What NPC guards may or may not be coded to react to does not matter. It is assumed that the whole city would react poorly, if not violently, to visitors. Just because NPC X does not automatically respond means nothing. As the old saying goes, "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should".

3. OOC knowledge to enter MH will likely end up badly for anyone. The rule is well known, if you try and enter without a VERY good IC reason, I would expect OOC reaction to your abuse of code and other violations.

4. New Underdark expansions are no excuse to enter MH.

5. Starving/hurt groups could rest in Settlestone then push on to Silverymoon or Irondeep for supplies. Any dwarf leading non-dwarves into MH risk IC and OOC punishment. There have been rare exceptions, but if you were an exception, you would know.

6. Cannot comment on the state or future of mithril wares, or rules regarding them. Not my department.

7. I believe dwarves would let strangers rot at the door, rather than let them in. "Good" folks steal just as easily as "bad". That said, the best unwanted visitors could expect might be a quick heal and a drop off outside Settlestone. My opinion of course.

8. It is open, but it is OOC protected so to speak. I don't see a reason why we NEED to code guards to response to players abusing an old and well known rule. That is the risk abusers will take, much like old 'neutral' wizards that trained in Silverymoon then turned bad... deletion is a harsh reality.

Now, most of what I typed is rule based, very little was opinion. As for opinion, I feel MH is dwarf country and should stay that way. However, I could see the usefulness of a few new additions to the area.

Something like mob near any Underdark connections that would drop characters top-side, for a price... sort of like guards escorting players to gates in Waterdeep and a replacement food vendor, now that player shops are close in Settlestone to name a few.

[Brar]

1. The policy for non-dwarves entering MH is unchanged: You are not allowed.

Yes, however that is FK rules and not cannon, which is why I try to open a debate.

2. What NPC guards may or may not be coded to react to does not matter. It is assumed that the whole city would react poorly, if not violently, to visitors. Just because NPC X does not automatically respond means nothing. As the old saying goes, "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should".

It is assumed but why and by whom, on what basis?

3. OOC knowledge to enter MH will likely end up badly for anyone. The rule is well known, if you try and enter without a VERY good IC reason, I would expect OOC reaction to your abuse of code and other violations.

Is it really well known for a new player stumbling to the entrance in the underdark? Can you give me one clear place where it is explained?

4. New Underdark expansions are no excuse to enter MH.

But having the entrance unguarged is nothing logical either if the dwarf don't want something to invade it.
Agian, how can we assume new players have read all of the forum and read between every lines to understand that when it not nor IC, nor explained anywhere in the game.

5. Starving/hurt groups could rest in Settlestone then push on to Silverymoon or Irondeep for supplies. Any dwarf leading non-dwarves into MH risk IC and OOC punishment.

How could you rest in Settlestone without entering MH when coming from the underdark?
Also, in cannon Settlestones came back to a non habitate state after the leaving of the barbarian and was never used again by the dwarves.

There have been rare exceptions, but if you were an exception, you would know.

I don't agree, it was open to everyone during more than 6 months before being OOCly closed because of player abuses. Would characters who have participated in the freeing of Mithral Halls (as in was in the RP that took place) be ICly turned away? I don't think so, ICly speaking, those would be regarded as hero from the Battlehamme clan, be them dwarves or not.

6. Cannot comment on the state or future of mithril wares, or rules regarding them. Not my department.

Yet, that was the only reason MH became closed to non dwarves in the past, because of such abuse. So I think it is the main question.

7. I believe dwarves would let strangers rot at the door, rather than let them in. "Good" folks steal just as easily as "bad". That said, the best unwanted visitors could expect might be a quick heal and a drop off outside Settlestone. My opinion of course.

I don't agree, MH never closed his door against any visitors in any book, it even was a problem several time.
It is precisely what Bruenor reproached to Nesme and why he don't like them and it is not really in his personality to do what he would not like others to do to him, for me that's part of the lawful good paramount of the dwarves.

Even Arroghate and Jarlaxe (which are both evils to boot) came as easily as anybody inside the city, refugee, travellers, ect ect...

8. It is open, but it is OOC protected so to speak. I don't see a reason why we NEED to code guards to response to players abusing an old and well known rule. That is the risk abusers will take, much like old 'neutral' wizards that trained in Silverymoon then turned bad... deletion is a harsh reality.

Old and well known by old players yes (and even then, I think that it is more an "established not knowing why" but acceptrd rules more than anything else), but it is not a 'logical' nor IC rules, only an OOC one, should we expect new players to know about the OOC past just like that?
Should there not be one mob in the entrance saying it clearly that you shall not pass?

Now, most of what I typed is rule based, very little was opinion. As for opinion, I feel MH is dwarf country and should stay that way. However, I could see the usefulness of a few new additions to the area.

Something like mob near any Underdark connections that would drop characters top-side, for a price... sort of like guards escorting players to gates in Waterdeep and a replacement food vendor, now that player shops are close in Settlestone to name a few.

I'm fine with MH being a dwarven city, however, I'm also a big fan of consistency and logic.
I know it is a well old established rumes, but it is also a ten years old rules which the reasons behind it have been forgotten by most a long time ago.
It is the "it has always been that way" stance, is ten years too early to reopen the debate about the why and how?
The playerbase changed, the mud as a whole changed I would likely see the Garuum's Gorge finally reclaimed and a NPC guiding you from the underdark to the Undercity and "visitors" being confined in the Undercity.
I don't even question trades learning, clearly those should stay dwaves only.

Of course, there is no discussion about drows, orcs or tiefling coming inside, nor casting spells in the presence of dwarves.

For me, the reason behind the rules are obsolete since a very long time. And with the world evolving, I could imagine it being changed.
You still have to travel half the underdark to reach MH, no question about coming from the ten doors, for non dwarves would never know where those are, nor how to open them so coming from there is not only higly punishable but is even worse than that.
It can also be seen as a reward (in an OOC sense) to group of adventurer who have manage to get there while exploring the underdark.
It is tales to tale, which is adventurer job after all

Or if we keep it closed like it is right now, can we at least try to make it a little more IC? Adding a simple guard at the entrance explaining the closing of the Halls to non dwarves for example, I don't ask for anything more than that.
I'm all up for FK is not FR, but when we go completly against a cannon like this one, we have to make sure every new player who comes based on his FR knowledge is not taken doing something forbidden only because of lacks the difference between FK and FR.

Brar

[Harroghty]

Brar and others: It's important to keep Ed Greenwood's basic rule for the Realms in mind. He has always said that what he presents is a starting place and that how you deviate from the starting place is up to you. So, in other words, we could go either direction here and be just fine. Novels are a great example of the fact that there are very few hard and fast rules in the Realms.

I do not know the original logic behind the decision to close Mithral Hall to outsiders, but I did a little research on the dwarves and came up with a few interesting ideas. Mithral Hall was reclaimed in 1356 as Brar pointed out, but you could use that to argue both opening it to some outsiders (they had help) or closing it to them (see below from a book out of the 2d Edition FRCS).

The northern, mountain-dwelling dwarves also tend to divide themselves into two categories: the hidden and wanderers. The hidden are a reflection of the shield dwarven sense of their loss and danger as a race. A majority of shield dwarves (and of dwarves in general) can be classified as part of the hidden. The hidden are reclusive and remain secretive about their homelands. Because of this, the small kingdoms of the dwarves are known about only in a general fashion. ... More common are those who dwarves who identify their home as home long-abandoned or enemy-occupied hold, such as the dwarves that were of Hammer Hall, or those of the Iron House, who had been driven out of the mines of Tethyamar.
-Ed Greenwood and Jeff Grubb. A Grand Tour of the Realms, p. 8

It's important to mention that this quote predates Mithral Hall (MH) being retaken. MH's first mention in a Campaign Setting book is 3d Edition. I still believe that this mentality, the desperation and secrecy of the shield (mountain) dwarves, would be a factor. Dwarves may not turn away a dying paladin from their gates, but they would at least not tell even a dying paladin where there gates were if they did not have to.

All that being said: what are the benefits or losses of opening Mithral Hall to outsiders in your opinions?

[Nysan]

Not stepping into a cannon debate. I have always been of the stance that DM (house) rules trump cannon materials and I don't want to derail this topic with my rants.

So, to me it boils down to...

1. I don't know what the plans are for mithril goods, but if they should reappear within MH, an open MH would make that all just one big headache.

2. Underdark expansion... To be honest, I don't see a newbie wandering the Underdark and stumbling into MH. That suggests a character of at least a few levels and if you have a 30+ level character, you should be somewhat familiar with dwarves (my opinion!) and heard of MH in passing.

That said, I revert to my prior comment of an NPC you can pay that will drop you at Settlestone should you find yourself near the MH Underdark areas. Basically an NPC controlled travel, like the Waterdeep guard coded that takes characters to the gates for a gold piece.

3. I didn't mention trades in my first post because I didn't think anyone would suggest opening MH trainers to outsiders. That's reaching even by my oddball standards.

4. My comment about exceptions applied to certain characters that were invited to attend specific events, like weddings and such. That is why I said rare and they would know who they were. Was not trying to imply anything regarding the 'openers' or any other special characters. Please forgive the confusion.!

5. MH is old. The coding and related NPCs are in dire need of a major overall, a new doorman NPC one of many ideas. But, it is MH... a low traffic area. Unless a dwarf-centered builder falls out of the sky, MH is no where near the top of the to-do list. I accept that. Fun to dream though...

[Brar]

The benefits for opening MH would be only in term of IC logic for me, perhaps also opening the trade focus feats to non-dwarf and gives every one a chance to see it once without making short humans, allowing further expansion and quests based from there, more life in general. Of course, certain zones inside the Halls could stay Dwarves only, I can't imagine them opening the mines for examples.

The benefits would also be in term of roleplay opportunity for dwarves without going outside the Halls and gives more reason to work on it for it will not be only for 4 players (we are 4 active dwarves since more than 6 months...).

And the benefits would also be a more consitent world (that's my opinion) for the shutting down of MH makes little sense to me ICly and I failed to see a valid reason but legacy from old times.
(but perhaps that is because I know about it from an OOC point of view and have a hard time finding IC reasons where I know there was none).

We could also move toward 3rd edition (I'm not even speaking 4th here) and change the "secret door" to the "guarded gates" Bruenor had made instead, and there add guards who can guide "worthy people" (could be quests driven or such) inside the Undercity.

But we can also stay closed as it is, I have no less problem with that, but then I think we should give the story behind it something to make it more "history" than "OOC desicion to close a zone because of abuse", and adding a simple NPC in front of the entrance, explaining that you can't enter the Halls would be good for me.

Brar

[Nysan]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against MH opening, I just see issue with the process that could snowball, if not addressed... like mithril goods, trainers, someone just wandering around and killing the whole town (wrong in general, but happens), ect. Rather see MH stay as is than see it fall apart after opening.

Side comment, I would love to see MH open for one big reason: Young dwarves dying in the tunnels not having to pray and hope an old dwarf logs in to get raised. If nothing else, that would be a great improvement on MH, in my eyes.

[Gwain]

Side comment, I would love to see MH open for one big reason: Young dwarves dying in the tunnels not having to pray and hope an old dwarf logs in to get raised. If nothing else, that would be a great improvement on MH, in my eyes.

That is also the only real plus to opening up Mithril Hall that I can see too.

I would have a different opinion about five years ago, but there are many areas and many trainers available all over the mud, to the point that the exclusiveness of that area is called into question. No one has raised the question about the halls being open or closed publicly in a number of years, mostly because of the availability of other areas.

It is easy though to make it hard for an area to be abused or to track abuse with the leaps made in coding, so if there is enough demand from more than a handful of players I don't see the harm in opening the area up. The mithril is gone, there is not much else within that players could not find elsewhere.

[Selveem]

I've stayed away from the topic because I know my thoughts on the subject are still a bit shaky, but really, the more I think about it I really don't think the halls should be open.

The Halls are where young Dwarves are taught survival or death. It's one of the hardest (if not, THE hardest, considering my Dwarf got one-shot a few times by the beetles in the training area) starting areas in the game. It is a place where coin is exceptionally scarce and armors (meaning, not the cloth stuff) is very, very expensive. There are few ways to make money within the halls without resorting to traveling outside. There aren't a great number of materials within the halls. Going outside as a young Dwarf is possible, but as a new player it's not happening without some guidance.

That's the reason why Mithral Halls has a kismet requirement.
That's the reason why exceptional armors were available there and not anywhere else.
That's also the reason that certain quests were made available there to those who chose it as a hometown.

You open it up to everyone and I think it steals more mystique from the game, makes it less challenging (thus, dulls the experience), and turns it into yet another Tantras. I would really prefer Mithral Halls not to become "just another area."

Shield Dwarves are a stand-offish race. As Harroghty mentions, their numbers are declining and they worry of extinction. Obviously, as a Shield Dwarf adventures out they may deviate in said behavior, but some even stay that way thereafter. I don't see them opening their arms to outsiders.

There's my OOC and IC reasoning.

[Brar]

The Halls are where young Dwarves are taught survival or death. It's one of the hardest (if not, THE hardest, considering my Dwarf got one-shot a few times by the beetles in the training area) starting areas in the game. It is a place where coin is exceptionally scarce and armors (meaning, not the cloth stuff) is very, very expensive. There are few ways to make money within the halls without resorting to traveling outside. There aren't a great number of materials within the halls. Going outside as a young Dwarf is possible, but as a new player it's not happening without some guidance.

I completly second that it is the situation today (except on the armor, it changed a lot recently and only plain standard armour are now available there).
But that is my question, does it makes sense either ICly or OOCly. Doesn't it divert people from making a dwarf, most play for 1 or 2 weeks never to reappear again, is the extreme difficulty of the zone not a little responsible for this?

In all honesty, I never created a dwarf in MH, mine date from long before but the area when it was designed was not supposed to be all closed up like that. And the difficultness of the zone comes from this reclusion almost entirely for me.

That's the reason why Mithral Halls has a kismet requirement.
That's the reason why exceptional armors were available there and not anywhere else.
That's also the reason that certain quests were made available there to those who chose it as a hometown.

It won't change the Kismet requirement, nor the fact that most actual quests would stay restricted to those with their hometown there. The exceptional armor is an obsolete commetn today as they are not anymore there.
But it also open the doors to make new quests, new child zone with new quests, ect.
Expanding the trade focus to other races could be one example (not for free of course, you have to prove worthy of being taugh by the dwarves)

You open it up to everyone and I think it steals more mystique from the game, makes it less challenging (thus, dulls the experience), and turns it into yet another Tantras. I would really prefer Mithral Halls not to become "just another area."

I think it depends how you open it up. To be honest, I was thinking about opening it from behind first, not from above.
And if open, I would rather see it quest locked with a good history behind the quest rather than just closed up for no real reason.

Shield Dwarves are a stand-offish race. As Harroghty mentions, their numbers are declining and they worry of extinction. Obviously, as a Shield Dwarf adventures out they may deviate in said behavior, but some even stay that way thereafter. I don't see them opening their arms to outsiders.

That depends on where on the FR Timeline you look. This was true in 2nd ed, in changing during the 3rd/3.5 transition, not true anymore in 4th edition.
But then what only matters is what we (the mud as a whole) want to consider it and do about it.
Also, MH is not the standard dwarven community, it is one of the most open minded one, friends with elves, gnomes, humans and even orcs in a certain way (I suggest everyone to read the lastest RA Salvatore novels)
You would say Adbar, I would be sick to see it allowing any non dwarf inside but it is Mithril Hall here.

And to be honest, I find it a shame for a zone with so much potential to stay unused because only 4 players can go there. It is a very big and nice zone and would deserve more people seeing and using it for me, but of course, it should not just come open like that, changes should be made and a RP explanation, be it Imm driven or quest driven.
I am aware about that and the amount of job it could take, but I want to see what others thinks about it before taking it around the table and proposing all that

There's my OOC and IC reasoning.

Thank for sharing

[Selveem]

is the extreme difficulty of the zone not a little responsible for this?

You can say the same thing for Menzo. I don't think Menzo will be opening up to the public anytime soon, either. Like I said, there's a reason why there's a kismet requirement. It's not an area for the faint of heart. It's an area that is a challenge to grow up in. In my opinion, it's a bit like growing up in the "ghetto" areas; life is hard, but if you learn to survive you can come out all the stronger for it. As I see it, it's a starting area for those who actually want a challenge. If you want your characters to be "babied along," there are plenty of other starting areas for that. Now, I do think there should be more incentive for MH Dwarves to _stay_ in MH more; especially to help out new Dwarves. As it stands, unless you're a Priest of Moradin (as all the other Gods aren't coded), getting back into MH is quite a trip. My Dwarven crafter is from there (and tends to stay there), but I haven't really had the patience to deal with the new version of crafting as I get frustrated I can't craft while online and have such a low success rate (but that's getting off topic, please forgive).

The exceptional armor is an obsolete commetn today as they are not anymore there.

Hehe, that's why I said that particular statement in the past tense. Who's to say it won't be the case in the future?

I think it depends how you open it up. To be honest, I was thinking about opening it from behind first, not from above.

I just disagree with the opinion. Mithral Halls is one of the few places that many people have never even visited before. I'm of the belief that more of our existing playerbase have gone deep into the UM than have been in Mithral Halls.

Shield Dwarves are a stand-offish race. As Harroghty mentions, their numbers are declining and they worry of extinction. Obviously, as a Shield Dwarf adventures out they may deviate in said behavior, but some even stay that way thereafter. I don't see them opening their arms to outsiders.

That depends on where on the FR Timeline you look. This was true in 2nd ed, in changing during the 3rd/3.5 transition, not true anymore in 4th edition.

Obviously, we're not 4th edition (and I would probably quit very shortly after any code changes that made us 4th edition). There was no spellplague. Mystra still exists. Etc. Etc. So, yes, Shield Dwarves are as previously mentioned. I believe it even says so in the helpfiles.

Also, MH is not the standard dwarven community, it is one of the most open minded one, friends with elves, gnomes, humans and even orcs in a certain way (I suggest everyone to read the lastest RA Salvatore novels)

Frankly, I'm not a fan of the novels. Especially because they don't even follow certain mechanics. As far as I'm concerned, if it's not a core rulebook or supplemental, it doesn't exist. Even still, as has been said before, house rules will trump even core rulebooks. This is why there can't be evil followers of Mystra. It's why Paladins aren't a standard class. It's why Rangers can't be evil. It's why there are 50 levels instead of 20. *could go on for days*

And to be honest, I find it a shame for a zone with so much potential to stay unused because only 4 players can go there.

I get you there, but it's not fair to say such a thing. ANY players can go there; they just have to make a Dwarf of proper alignment.

It is a very big and nice zone and would deserve more people seeing and using it for me, but of course, it should not just come open like that, changes should be made and a RP explanation, be it Imm driven or quest driven.

It's a pretty big zone. There are some nice things there, but not much you can't get elsewhere; especially since the mithral armor has been made into mundane metal.

I am aware about that and the amount of job it could take, but I want to see what others thinks about it before taking it around the table and proposing all that

The fairest question is: "is it worth it to change the area to allow outsiders in?" I think that's where I get hung up. There's so much content the game is missing. Some that has been 'in the works' for years, areas such as Candlekeep, that the MUD could definitely use.

[Theolund]

Was this ever figured out and put down as the set rule for Mh?

[Nylo]

Well, it's coded to only allow dwarves in. So I would assume that the rules haven't changed.

[Theolund]

There's actually a reason I ask. I was wondering from the higher ups. Hoping to hear there thoughts since it was never really stated just conjecture up to the point this was last posted in.

[Nylo]

The rules as they stand are quoted in Nysan's post above. Or are you referring to something else?

[Brar]

Guards should forbids you from entering areas you should not entering.
If not then there's a problem I think.