Lowering Charisma Requirement for Paladins

[Timaeus]

Currently a Paladin in our FK setting requires an 18 base charisma (no stat modifiers from spells/equipment). That seems to be an unduly high requirement in the current FK environment. I have been looking for some sort of requirement in SRD 3.5 rules and thus far have not found any. I have only found a couple of references specific to Paladins:

Code: Select all

Smite Evil (Su)
 
Once per day, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.
 
At 5th level, and at every five levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: The Paladin, to a maximum of five times per day at 20th level.
 
Divine Grace (Su)
 
At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.
 
Lay on Hands (Su)
 
Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level × her Charisma bonus. A paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once. Using lay on hands is a standard action.

Turn Undead (Su)
 
When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. She turns undead as a cleric of three levels lower would.
 

These references all point to a complete removal of the Charisma requirement from paladins in SRD 3.5, while I do not expect that to convert directly into a removal of the Paladin Charisma Requirement in FK I do think that an adjustment to the required Charisma is needed. As is with the current FK character generation system Paladins are left at a large disadvantage from stats alone in comparison to other classes. While this does not directly affect my own squire it does really affect anyone that might want to start a paladin in FK. For the purposes of FK I would suggest a lowering of the requirment to 14 or 16. That would leave leeway for any new players of Paladins in FK to have some wiggle room to flesh out their characters in a more competitive manner and to their own vision of what their Paladin is.

[Selveem]

I have no horse in this race, but I support the outright removal of any Charisma requirement. Since we're doing all these changes to align with D&D, the benefits of character flexibility should come alongside.

[Theolund]

The requirements for quite a few things I think should be looked at. Stats are no longer disposable. By which I mean we can expend glory to buy more feats or stat points. Look at the high costs on scholar and teacher. No one can really attain those stats aside from maybe wizards or priest without making the character underpowered out in the world.

[Orplar]

I'd thought this option was removed a long time ago

[Theolund]

The option to change glory for stats and feats was, but not before scholar and teacher where put in. If I remember right.

[Orplar]

Ah, misunderstood what I read

[Harroghty]

And what do current paladins think?

[Aldren]

Time to toss in 2 (or 3) cents on the subject:
I had a really hard time building Liric back when he was a squire, sitting at level 30. The charisma requirements of paladins was so high for me that Liric basically has 3 good stats (CHA, STR, and CON), which allow him to be a viable melee combatant (which every knight worth his spurs needs to be). This left other stats sorely lacking (including DEX which Liric was raised as a fencer with weapon feats toward thrusting blades, he rolled around in chainmail with a buckler and rapier, and pretended to be a nimble squire even though his DEX score was horrendous). This also left his WIS and INT at dangerously low levels, forcing me to make a sacrifice in INT and WIS (which a paladin needs WIS to cast his prayers) in lieu of combat-ready stats. The low INT and WIS makes Liric look like (in his score sheet) a dumb, naiive knight who only knows how to swing a sword and can't learn any languages beyond what I started with. Skills now barely increase for him, he cannot even learn the Expertise feat to be a viable "tank" for a group (fighting in defensive mode equates to him being unable to land any strikes), and I am forced to cast sagacity any time I want to cast a level 3 or 4 prayer. All unfortunate, but all based on my personal decisions in how I wanted Liric to progress. Did I enjoy min/maxing his stats for maximum effectiveness? Heck no. Was it a necessary action to make him a viable knight worth (I hope) his spurs? Absolutely.

I find the requirement of 18 CHA for paladins to be a bit too high. When we compare it to, for example, the Gilded Lance advanced membership requirement of 15 CHA to teach and train a battlefield commander, I am envious that paladins require such a high CHA versus these "advanced" fighters. Though a paladin does need to have a high enough charisma score to have enough tact to lead (his allies) and sway (his foes), I find the requirement of 18 for CHA to be a little too high, forcing paladins to use CHA as a dump stat and allowing his other stats to take a hit because of it. Even lowering it by 2 or 3 would allow paladins to become more viable at healing or combat, both important aspects of playing a paladin, whether solo or in a group.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with allowing a paladin to have a minimum CHA score of 15 (or 16 at the very highest). This will allow players some incentive to creating a page/squire with the hopes of having a viable knight at level 50. I would wholeheartedly support lowering the CHA requirement for paladins - this would alleviate a lot of the worries that a player has in creating a character wishing to pursue to path to knighthood and allow knights to focus more on the martial aspects of his knighthood (which should be just as (not moreso) important as his faith in his deity).

[Hrosskell]

I'm not a paladin myself, but the biggest deterrent to me making a paladin in the FK setting is a feeling that I won't be useful to a group down the road. It's a bit like thief (as is) in that it has very, very broad stat requirements and could use a bit more room to move around.

Currently, requiring an 18 CHA and (ideally) having 18str/con leaves you with.. 24 out of 29 possible stats. Getting the wisdom needed for all of your spells (12 w/ +2 wis piece of gear, considerably rare) brings you up to 26, leaving 3 stat points. Because of the discrepancy between expertise and the int required, you can't go that build path--and the points dumped in dex are nice for 1 AC in plate, and access to 0 feats. Freeing up 2-3 stat points would alleviate this in either direction (with 3 actually solving the issues all around, but still leaving you with a bare-bones wisdom score and depending on a rare item to function at baseline).

I don't think that the charisma requirement is indicative of an ability to roleplay (and have many "beefs" with Charisma requirements across the board, but another thread), but I do think that they are, in this specific incident, an anti-fun mechanic. At the end of the day, everyone wants to have a character who isn't second-best to novice something elses. With the current stat/feat system, paladins are by and large forced into this.

[Selveem]

At one point, roleplaying your character's stats properly was a BIG issue. People with low intelligence figuring out puzzle quests was seen as code abuse (Selveem got reprimanded for figuring out Halister's area with 17 Int [modified {repeatedly}, the entire time while doing the quest]). Likewise, people with low Charisma using adjectives like "beautiful" was a huge no-no.

It sounds to me like Paladins are being placed in a position that they must accept the high Charisma requirement and either:

1. be useless in combat
2. "cheat" on their roleplay so they can stay knights, but be useful in combat
3. be useful in combat, roleplay their characters properly: oblivious and ignorant

The players of Paladins are held up as "the best" of roleplayers. They go through years worth of RP hoops in some cases just to get their actual class. What we're asking of these players is unfair: to not be good roleplayers and violate their character's real RP based on what their stats actually are. If a Paladin actually RPed as being ignorant and oblivious, I highly doubt s/he would be allowed to remain a Paladin for long (or that s/he'd actually even make it past Squire, for that matter).

[Harroghty]

Thanks for summing that up, Selveem.

I will take these opinions under consideration and publish the result soon. Thanks for the input.

[Brar]

Just one hint of something, perhaps it would be nice to make Paladins spell casting Charisma based instead of Wisdom based, like in Pathfinder.

That gives more sense to paladin having high Charisma, which they should have for me, considering they are the epitome of Charisma based class with bards.

[Selveem]

...They aren't, though. They were never supposed to be. Paladins are divine casters, like Clerics.

If you think about it logically, it makes sense for Bards DC/Spells Per Day to be Charisma based: Every Bard spell has a verbal component in the form of "singing, dancing, or reciting."

Paladins receive their spells through the grace of their God/desses, not through the creativity or their singing, dancing, or reciting.

I don't see good cause here to diverge from core rules, especially when it seems we are trying to align more closely with them.

[Brar]

I don't want t start a war or anything, it's not like this even concerns me as I have no paladin and don't plan on making one with less than 18 CHA anyway.
But charisma is not only singing, dancing and being nice.... it's presence.

Which is why all the paladin's class skills are charisma based since 1st edition.... (and are in 3rd also..)
That's also why Sorcerer are Charisma based.

In tabletop, a Paladin with less than 18 CHA is well, kinda of screwed before it even start.

That is why in Pathfinder, they switch the Wisdom based spellcasting to Charsima based spellcasting for Paladin too, which makes more sense as they do not focus spells like cleric but more benefit from their god's grace through their holy presence.

But anyway, taken from the home page.

Forgotten Kingdoms is a free multi-user dungeon (MUD) game based upon Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms® campaign setting. The game's rules are based upon the d20 Pathfinder® system and 3.5E Dungeons and Dragons®, but our rules do not mirror those systems precisely

So I think that we can even keep Paladin more 2nd edition like in term of knights and such rather than more 3rd ed as Divine Champions and not necesseraly knights.

However, I think turning their skills to be more Charisma based would be a nice thing, giving them less vital stat. Making a good compromise between 2nd ed, 3.5ed and Pathfinder.
But making them less Charismatic is not true nor to DnD nor to what Paladins and Knights (which they are the elite) represents (for me).

[Selveem]

That's also why Sorcerer are Charisma based.

You're dissolving your own point. Sorcerers are Charisma-based because their spells are the force of their own character. Internal, not external power. Paladins get their power from an external source (their God/desses). Their piety is what grants them this power. Being in tune with (Wisdom) an external source (their God/dess) determines their ability to channel that divine power.

In tabletop, a Paladin with less than 18 CHA is well, kinda of screwed before it even start.

While it's certainly true that Paladins greatly benefit from Charisma, the main bonuses come from Divine Grace and Lay on Hands; the flexibility of D&D affords that a Paladin needn't have high Charisma just to be useful.

Further, changing spells/day to Charisma means Wisdom is more of a dump stat for Paladins. There's little balance as the Will saves are negated by Divine Grace's bonus from all the additional Charisma bonus. That doesn't really support the initial, balanced design of Paladins.

*edited to remove excess end quote

[Brar]

Kinda changing topics without changing it. Just did some maths regarding stats.

Here is an example of possible stat at level 50 for a human.

18; 18; 14; 14; 12; 12
For a paladin it could be STR, CHA 18 /CON, WIS 14/INT, DEX 12

You can cast all your spells, you have good STR, you have good CON, you have requisite CHA and decent DEX INT.

Some will be outraged because I said 14 is good and 12 is decent.
So let's do the math, here is what having 14 in CON instead of 18 changes.
2 hitpoint per level times 50 so 100hp.
You have 1d10hp+CON per level so an average 5.5+CON per level
Which means level 50 you average at :
For 14 CON : 375hp
For 18 CON : 475hp

Of course, that only average and you can very well have 250hp with 18CON and 500 hp with 14CON. It all depends also on your luck.

Now let's do this for BAB.

You have + 20, +15, +10, +5
so having 18STR give you +4, imaging having only 16 (and thus 16 in CON too), it would give you a +3...
Which means you have -1 than you would, if you take in consideration, weapon magic bonus, weapon focus, buffing spell than you won't see a freaking difference between 18STR and 16STR.

Except a psychological one to not having 18 in a stat.

We can go on and on with statistics and thus mathematical figures without human feelings in them.

At high levels, stats are not that important in a fight, your Equipment easily takes prevalence over stats and can counters the lack of bonus easily.

Now, I think people set things too high regarding stats.

Rememeber that average stat is 10.
Anything more than 10, is more than the average human and begins to steps in the heroic part of the population.

So a ability score of 12 is decent for a hero, a 14 is already good, a 16 is great, a 18 is past great, it's almost supernatural regarding real world.

I mean, a STR of 18 it's the strength of a minotaur !!

I fear that we had a bad habits from when our characters had 18 or more in all stats and feel less now that we have more "normal" (for heroes) stats.

Now, that doesn't makes our characters useless, perhaps what we need to change is our way dealing with situations.

And perhaps us (players and imms alike) should stp down our standard about stats a bit and considers characters more than average when thy have 12 in a stat and not only 18.

Well, that's just random thoughts anyway... (and I still think paladins should be Charisma based and yes, I'm a fan of Pathfinder far more than 3.5 )

[Selveem]

I mean, a STR of 18 it's the strength of a minotaur !! [...] I fear that we had a bad habits from when our characters had 18 or more in all stats and feel less now that we have more "normal" (for heroes) stats. [...] Now, that doesn't makes our characters useless, perhaps what we need to change is our way dealing with situations. [...] And perhaps us (players and imms alike) should stp down our standard about stats a bit and considers characters more than average when thy have 12 in a stat and not only 18.

This really does deserve it's own topic; it's one of my personal pet peeves. Regardless of how players may initially see statistics, the reinforcement for these high expectations are visible throughout the MUD, especially in quests. I think the first step to removing these high expectations would be the removal of high stat requisites from quests. I love Lathlain (one of my favorite people from the MUD, actually), but the high charisma stat requirements for a Fighter to join the advanced portion of a Fighter's guild is unfair to races like Dwarves. The high stat requirements for simple feats like "teacher" and "scholar" do deserve a hard looking at when it's considered exactly how high those stats are.

Until these things are changed, the stat-whoring expectations will always be at the forefront causing us to make bad decisions in stat placement (gotta have 20 Str or I'm garbage!).

[Timaeus]

Rememeber that average stat is 10.
Anything more than 10, is more than the average human and begins to steps in the heroic part of the population.

So a ability score of 12 is decent for a hero, a 14 is already good, a 16 is great, a 18 is past great, it's almost supernatural regarding real world.

Precisely, and yet another reason why an 18 charisma requirement is unrealistic. 14-16 is a charisma at the rank of modern world leaders (Napolean, Churchill, Roosevelt, Jefferson, Queen Elizabeth, Mandella, Ghandi) Far more than adequate for a paladin.

Lowering the requirement by 2-4 points is reasonable given the way character creation has evolved from the times when everyone had 18s in every stat. Theres no need to unduly burden and make playing more difficult on new players of paladins by requiring them to use over 25% of their available customisation on charisma, which then in turn does affect their ability in comparison to other classes. Yes, stats do matter in FK at high levels, its not a Mush.

[Theolund]

This really does deserve it's own topic; it's one of my personal pet peeves. Regardless of how players may initially see statistics, the reinforcement for these high expectations are visible throughout the MUD, especially in quests. I think the first step to removing these high expectations would be the removal of high stat requisites from quests. I love Lathlain (one of my favorite people from the MUD, actually), but the high charisma stat requirements for a Fighter to join the advanced portion of a Fighter's guild is unfair to races like Dwarves. The high stat requirements for simple feats like "teacher" and "scholar" do deserve a hard looking at when it's considered exactly how high those stats are.

Until these things are changed, the stat-whoring expectations will always be at the forefront causing us to make bad decisions in stat placement (gotta have 20 Str or I'm garbage!).

Totally agreeing on this point. It's very true.

[Hrosskell]

I think there's a lot to look at in Brar's statement, but the idea that we should change "how we view things" is one I'd like to poke at. The idea that we can't be strong is precisely the idea we're poking at here--the idea that for paladins, being equivalent to everyone else is only a logical and easy to remove power-cap away is what we're poking at. You've set up the basis: we don't need 18s. Why, then, do we need this specific 18? It's a remnant from a time when 18s were easily achievable across the board--they're not anymore. Allow us to put our few 18s where we feel they're most useful; and if a paladin feels that Charisma really is the most useful for paladins, or his roleplay in particular, then he of course still has the freedom to put it there.