Raise dead/Resurrection discussion

Timaeus · Post by **Timaeus** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:55 am

While randomly discussing raise dead with another player we got to talking about the bodies being sans clothing after our priests prayer is cast and then the often times embarassment for the both the newly alive and priest ICly. Now it stands to reason that since raise dead requires the actual corpse be present that unless a priest or another person strips the dead person down by removing things from the corpse that the raised person would still be wearing their clothing when brought to life. Even the graphic in the Player's Handbook(pg 153) as well as the spell description suggests this is the case.

We both would like to see the raise dead spell come with a forced wear all command.

These potential mentally scarring situations will be reduced unless someone removes all the items from a corpse. While it will not be 100% perfect in how they wear the layered items it will most closely approximate the desired result and effects on roleplay.

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:36 am

Yeah it will be nice to not have to RP stripping a corpse as most of you have see me do.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:48 pm

Erm... no, I do not think it is a good idea. Consider the following example.

New player's character A finds a nice ring with a symbol he does not really recognize, 'a ring with three lightning bolt symbols', finds it nice and decides to wear it. The ring zaps him and he dies. Priest comes, raises him, the character is forced to wear all again. He thus wears the ring, the ring zaps him and he dies.

ICly, you might say that it makes sense for the priest to remove the ring from the corpse before raising the character. It might... if the priest knows which item caused the death, but that's not always the case.

Also, with a forced wear all, the character would also try to wear what he was carrying in his inventory. And there might be things in there that he would not want to wear (charged items that trigger on wear, objects from another faith that he is simply carrying, cursed items, and so on).

Glim · Post by **Glim** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:21 pm

Why not merely RP that they are already clothed without having to actually be wearing everything?

I dont beleive they should be forced to wear everything they have but they could still RP wearing all their clothes until they find a suitable place to actually type wear all or the like.

EDIT:
This also KINDA goes with the whole your not naked when you revert from polymorphing. Your clothes merely reappear back on your old form.

Echet · Post by **Echet** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:10 pm

On the topic of being naked and embarrased when having been ressed or raised, I think many people may have realized that they have just been returned from the *dead*, and at that moment, not be in the proper state of mind to be embarassed over the trifling issue of clothing. Health and sanity comes first, then comfort. Sunites and prudes may have an excuse. The rest of us, imho, should be thankful just for being alive, letting alone how we look.

Echet, a scholar on death

Belose · Post by **Belose** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:02 pm

Actually, I think that when you RAISE DEAD, at least in table top, what it does is brings the spirit back INTO the body... the one that died.. it's not supposed to create a new body....it's just easier to do this in THIS game probably for code reasons.. but I could be wrong....lots of things have to be different between table top and mudding.....

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:45 pm

Besides, is nudity actually something to be ashamed of / embarrassed about?

Unless I am mistaken (I am no medieval expert), clothes were only used for two reasons: (1) to protect against the weather and/or the environment (using some leg protection to walk through a field of thorny plants) and (2) to show off (with expensive clothes, for the higher classes of society).

Also, besides the historical argument (which I am unsure of), there is also the racial argument. I can cite no precise reference, but I doubt that elves would be ashamed of being naked, as part of their connection to nature and well, the way they think.

Then again, I do not live in a country where seeing a woman's breast for a few seconds during a concert would create a ruckus, so I can understand that this opinion would not be shared.

Isaldur · Post by **Isaldur** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:46 pm

Drow thrive on passion, and other less than savory feelings. Of course they wouldn't mind nudity in many senses. Other races like normal elves also do not have the same types of modesty that humans do because of how they are raised.

Also, I hate to be a pain but medieval times are not exactly Forgotten Realms. Forgotten Realms treats the surf and peasant far better than the squalor of medieval unless they happen to live in a city that is evil, or run by evil merchants. Of course, medieval peasants also didn't have goblins and kobolds raiding them so I'd say it is a fair tradeoff.

To me, trying to compare a fantasy world slightly based off of certain concepts from medieval times to the actual historical thing is like trying to compare apples and oranges. They're both fruit, yet different.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:26 pm

Isaldur wrote:To me, trying to compare a fantasy world slightly based off of certain concepts from medieval times to the actual historical thing is like trying to compare apples and oranges. They're both fruit, yet different.

The whole world we play in is still based for a large part on real-life medieval times. I do not see why it would be wrong to use it to justify that people do not have to roleplay being embarrassed because they are nude and it would be perfectly fine to use it to justify that using "ok" or other modern-day words is poor roleplay.

My point above was to say that nudity in the medieval times was not considered as embarrassing as it is nowadays. That, to me, is enough justification to validate a roleplay where one would not care that much about being stark naked after being raised (or in other situations). Besides, there are many more aspects to roleplay about after being raised (gratitude, confusion "what happened?", confusion "where am I?", weakness, ...).

Isaldur · Post by **Isaldur** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:41 pm

I agree it's definately player's choice, and Dal has plenty of good points. I just like playing the devil's advocate sometimes to open up other ways of thinking about something.

I know my characters would react differently, and some might even remember something about nice and cool marble floors.

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:45 am

When I think of a priest casting raise dead I don't think of a quick hocus pocus magic word and poof the dead is alive again. I think of a long difficult ceremony with the body being one of the key elements. So I look at it as if the body has to be naked for the spell. Now I am not saying that the corpse has to be stripped or anything but that when the pc enters the world again it makes sense that it is naked.

I hope I got my idea across alright. It is 4:44 am I just got off work so I very well could be sputtering jibberish.

Algon · Post by **Algon** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:47 pm

Just my thought on this, but I would say that the wonderful RP that can come from one being raised from the dead and the one doing the raising is what is really important here. YOU WERE DEAD!!!! In real life if I had been killed and later woke up finding myself in the presence of a priest ALIVE!!!! I would not care what I was wearing. I would be very very confused and would want to know what had happened. I have seen many people get raised and then be like 'Thanks.' and just run off like nothing had happened. Not very good RP, and the RP is the reason we are all here.
And that is my 2 coppers worth!

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:04 am

Talamar wrote:
These kind of things are discouraged by the cost.

In all honesty, it's going to be like Obsidian for Priests.

Accept that Raise Dead at the Wendy's counter at every temple has made the need to find a priest with obsidian pretty much irrelevant for the bulk of players who want a quick ressurection without hassle and RP, and it comes usually at a much lower cost (most repeat raise dead customers I rescue, would average about 6-8 plat at the temple priests, based on the level they are, much much less than the cost of an obsidian.

Granted that it was put into place as a remedy for late-nite players who may have a hard time finding a priest to raise them, temple priests are open 24-7 and are bustling these days with reckless players trying to solo this area and that. In my opinion, Raise Dead has become almost as trivialized and abused as many complain that Teleport has been... but I digress, and that's really for another thread.

Tanduil · Post by **Tanduil** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:29 am

Kregor wrote:Raise Dead at the Wendy's counter ... comes usually at a much lower cost (most repeat raise dead customers I rescue, would average about 6-8 plat at the temple priests, based on the level they are, much much less than the cost of an obsidian.

This is blatantly untrue. The base price of player mined gems was changed at least 6 months ago, such that it is barely worth time mining them at the moment. yes there will still be higher priced gems out there - the change was not retrospective. But if you bother to find a store selling these items you will find you can raise 5-8 people for the price of raising them in a temple, unless your charisma is 6.

In my opinion, Raise Dead has become almost as trivialized and abused as many complain that Teleport has been... but I digress, and that's really for another thread.

Perhaps it may be, but the perception that it is cheaper to run to the temple being perpetuated by misinformation certainly doesn't help the situation. Yes obtaining a gem to raise someone is (very sligtly) more difficult than running to a temple, but in my opinion it is far better RP. Why on earth would a priest who has the ability willingly get someone else to do the job - have you no professional pride?

Argentia · Post by **Argentia** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:31 pm

I recall an echo one time on the Mud - an imm stated something along the lines that "if there is a PC priest online, use them for raisings before you go to an NPC priest." This was to help save the RP and give the PC priests a chance to be, well, priestly. Personally, if I'm helping someone out I always check the who list to see if there's a priest online that it would be IC for me to request help from. I know doing that's a bit OOC, but it helps facilitate RP.

Anyway, just thought I'd add that in there.

Exer · Post by **Exer** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:43 pm

I remember a while back that the imms did a test with the prices. I'm all for raising the cost of the spell for anyone above lvl 35.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:05 pm

Tanduil wrote:
Kregor wrote:Raise Dead at the Wendy's counter ... comes usually at a much lower cost (most repeat raise dead customers I rescue, would average about 6-8 plat at the temple priests, based on the level they are, much much less than the cost of an obsidian.
This is blatantly untrue. The base price of player mined gems was changed at least 6 months ago, such that it is barely worth time mining them at the moment. yes there will still be higher priced gems out there - the change was not retrospective. But if you bother to find a store selling these items you will find you can raise 5-8 people for the price of raising them in a temple, unless your charisma is 6.

Well... I will not argue with one of the best-known miners in the realm, as far as the current value of obsidian... though I *do* know that 6 months ago, I was still travelling to Settlestone for 20-some-odd plat per chunk. As you said, this may be because current inventory was still priced higher. The cheapest price I ever found roaming around was 17 plat.

Of course, if the price of obsidian has dropped as low as you say, then that actually further amplifies my main point of the post. Raise Dead has been cheapened and trivialized, if you truly can, as a priest, get the component cheap enough to raise 5-6 dead people for the price of one stop in the temples.... then please tell me this: Where is the sting in death?

We have lowbie chars unafraid to solo areas (or hi-levels in high XP areas, for that matter), because they can feel fairly secure in the knowledge that as long as they know others online, they can just call them up on the fugue plane payphone, get rescued, get taken to a temple and... well... the typical scenario is this:

Donate X plat to the priest,
Priest casts Raise Dead
playerA has been raised from the dead
playerA says "Hey, thanks!
playerA walks <whatever direction out of the temple is>

Death is supposed to be something at lease a little scary for even the average hero. I remember an RP where a few chars, including mine, were killed in a scenario, and the priest online raised as many as possilble... then the obsidian was all gone, and one char, me, was left still dead. This lead to a frantic search, the obsidian in every known shop was gone, no dwarves were online, and no other priests, if there were any online, had any. It turned into hours' long (read, game days long) search with wizards involved in trying to locate, and retrieve, trying other mined components... it was very ardruous, nerveracking and... great RP time!

It shouldn't be unacceptable to have a rare and expensive component required to bring you back from the dead. It shouldn't be unacceptable to have to wait for hours, or sometimes even days to find a priest who can and will raise you. Shouldn't death be more inconvenient than getting a pack stolen off your horse? Shouldn't there be some small undertone of "Oh, geez, when will I ever see my wife/lover/friends again?!" Death... especially through flirting with danger (which adventuring is) should come with some consequence.

And my argument is that loss of XP is not sufficient. It's not much of a deterrent to anybody unless you've been sitting on a a few level's worth, neglecting to train them up.

If we were back to 20+ plat obsidian being the only way to raise a person from the dead, we'd probably see an upsurge in partying again in places like the peaks for lowbies, or Hartsvale for higher levels, and the RP underlying resurrection would be richer and more easily controlled b live priests.

At the very least, if the tepmle Resurrection were to stay available for late nite people, then could it be coded it to require the person requesting the raise dead to have some obsidian? I recall at one point a surefire way to keep a young adventurers from doing a stupid mistake again was having to replace a priest's obsidian by hunting it down and buying it yourself, spending every last piece of coin you had saved that you could have bought something else with, if you hadn't tried walking into that mine shaft all on your own.

Nysan · Post by **Nysan** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:52 pm

Oh, goodie. Someone started this thread.

NPC priests are a very good thing, granted. Healing, curing, ect for a set price is very good. I think Raise Dead differs from this because the other abilities were changes to short-term effects. Blindness wears off if you wait, but you could pay the NPC and poof there you go.
Raise Dead is an RP spell, not a short-term effect spell. RP finding the priest, RP finding the body, RP discussing payment, RP getting the payment and relocating the priest. The NPC Raise Dead priests KILLED this RP aspect of priests almost completely. Yes the imms said look for online player priests...it may be just me put I don't see many doing that.
Late night gamer helper, perhaps. But RP-killer elsewhere. I suggest, as others have, that we limit the NPC Raise Dead abilities to low level players or at least jack up the price a bit so it IS cheaper and more effective to take a moment and look for that online priest rather than the quick two minute temple run.
Help the late night gamers: Yes, great efforts. Do so by hurting other players: Lets keep trying, ok?

As it shines through my eyes...

N.R.
(Active supporter of mundane travel and the tavern tales it spawns, real and imagined.)

Sia · Post by **Sia** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:02 pm

As for the NPC priests, if they were truly meant for the late-night gamers, why not only make their Raise Dead spell available late at night, or early in the morning when there's only a few people on?

~Sia

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:09 pm

I thought of that... but then is that fair? (I speak as one on on times with few people, from the British timezone, here... and this is just a random thought) That might send out the message that as long as you are on late, you can forget about RP. But then, I suppose the opportunity shouldn't be taken away, for late-night RP.

In that case, I think Sia's suggestion is a relatively good one. I'm not sure if it is possible or not.

Raise dead/Resurrection discussion

Raise dead and lack of clothing.