Alignment

Yboesh · Post by **Yboesh** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:06 am

I know, it is difficult sometimes to find other Evil- aligned PC's to RP with, but why seek out only the evils? This may sound lame, but just find someone to RP with and make the best of it. My own evil chars sometimes go for days(game time) with out ever seeing another intelligent creature, so when they do, they make the most of it and talk, gnash their teeth and make other threatening gestures(just kidding) til they can talk and maybe get a really good RP session started. I think though, that we just have to get out and look for PC's to rp with, both good and evil alignment. That is just my two coppers worth but there it is

Tretch · Post by **Tretch** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:27 pm

Ahhh, the wonders of being evil....

I have been a player of only evil characters for a long time now and I have noticed a few things. Many of the things I will mention are just my opinions from my own experience and I think many of the "evil" player community will agree. The main thing that all things seem to revolve around is the possible situation of a PK. This situation, in my opinion, seems to define some of the best and worst rp I have seen on the mud. Many people try evils with a very good vision of how they will act and react, they have a well thought out rp. As with any character, when you dont get to show your well thought out, "amazing" rp ideas with a certain character, it becomes boring quite quickly. Evil characters run into this problem a lot I think for many reasons.

First, there just are not that many evils around a great deal of the time. Some will disagree, but I gurantee that no matter how much you think otherwise....the "masses" agree with me. So, being that not many evils are on...you end up not being able to rp your fiendishly wicked rp ideas. Second, and this is a large one....is the situation of when you actually run into a good aligned character. Many ways this rp can turn, but I would say there are three main ways: a fight, basically ignoring each other, a solid rp.

Now dont take those word for word as any of them can be a "solid" rp and a fight can be percieved in many different ways. Also, please dont take the comments following WORD for WORD. I have been on FK for sometime and realize there is TONS of different situations and possibilities where my opinions dont fit well. I will leave the actual fight until last, but first I will look at "ignoring". There is nothing more frustrating to me than this. Running into another character who is either midway through a quest or just on their way to rp somewhere else and they completely ignore you. You finally run into another person and the most you get from them is a nod, they look at your stuff and basically talk just enough to be able to leave. I understand sometimes you really need to go, but understand its frustrating to get a chance to actually do your evil rp, and have it lost because you walk off. The worst of this being if the character you run into is "stronger" than you are. If the person's EQ dictates your rp with them, it is ridiculous and extremely frustrating. I have noticed many times that certain characters act completely different towards different ALTs of mine and I dont mean slight. I am speaking of a shift from coward to almost bully on some of my low level alts. Just because you see the chance to "show your muscle" on a lower level/unequipped character does not mean you should....which goes both ways.

Solid rp everyone should know how to do so I leave that alone, plus I am already rambling. Fighting I will use to fill in some blanks and toss out some ideas. First off, I have never killed anyone in a PK....never(been a witness, thats all

). Personally I think its a bit too much, and if you want an evil just to do it then you completely wrong from the start....plus viewed as a "jerk" type character as spoken of before

However, I think the evil/good fight rp is the main reason I still mud. Try to understand just how far rpwise you can go with it. When I see the chance to do one, my rp steps up heavily (as some may notice). The only way to truly have a positive fight rp is to make sure everyone knows OOC how it is going to run. People get VERY jumpy when they think you are there to take all of their hard earned items. I like to give an osay really early IF I see the POSSIBILITY of a fight in the distance, something that tells them it will be an rp stun fight if it does occur. That usually ups everyones rp instantly, now they can concentrate on smotes and rp instead of having MURDER <target> hovering on the command line, desperately waiting to be entered with supreme speed

. I think some dont realize that if YOU dont want to die....SAY SO. If you think you will explode OOC if something happens to your beloved character...say it

If you ask for a stun rp fight stock full of rp, there is no possible way they can disagree. The earlier people get into this grove, the more fun I think people can have. Fights add so much to the game, and can be few and far between if people are scared to engage. This goes for any level character...I have many low level alts tossed around by goodies

, its almost more fun to see how I can rp the shot to the pride lol. The fight gives you a chance to toss out all that your character's rp has to offer. Be smug, sarcastic, talk in dark tones and laugh in peoples faces with your evil.....be protective, brave, and courageous with your good, its all there to be done in that moment.

To me, your character then goes from unknown to somebody on this mud....you get a reputation to build on. Word about battles spreads much more in exciting stories than "that one time you think you saw an evil guy by that one place". This gives me a chance to thank Andreas for an rp Tretch and him had not long ago. To me, it was one of the best I have been involved in for some time. For that, I think his player.....and anyone who witnessed saw, noone got killed

So, if you see an evil....STOP, give them a chance to add some balance and show their rp. If not, they may not be there next time hehe. Real quick opinion before I shaddup.....if you feel the need to actually kill another character, it better be the best friggin rp you have ever done....it better be a shining of example of the best of the best

Also, I think you should have to send in a log of a PK rp if you do one. Maybe put in some code that flashes you a reminder after you land a death blow on a PC. That way imms can see if you are adding to the mud, or just angering others

Tretch, The Longwinded

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:01 pm

Okay, I have an opinion that is going to seem like grouping ALL people as one, but I assure you, it's not. It is my opinion that playing an evil can be very discouraging. Not for items, or quests or STUFF. But for RP reasons. No one enjoys leaving the newbie temple in plain armours and being bullied just because they are not in friendly safe WD. I personally have three evils. After being treated like utter crap for being 'new' to the city, one of them was killed within less than a week of leaving the newbie temple. In plain armours. Similar experience has happened with my second ZK evil. You cannot expect to not bend your rp even just a LITTLE bit for lowbies and expect them to actually stick around. No one can keep encouraged when they bump into said and similar situations. Encouragement is not posting a note on the boards begging people to log evil. You attract flies with honey, not with killing them off immediately. Just my thoughts.

Danica

Tretch · Post by **Tretch** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:52 pm

I wasn't begging people to play evils

I was just trying to outline how to make relations better. I think my post was actually helping your case. Maybe I am wrong though.

Tretch

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:58 pm

Mine wasn't in reply to yours.

It was a general post.

Danica

Nysan · Post by **Nysan** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:09 pm

Considering my limited time lately, I'll keep this short.
1. Playing evils is supposed to be hard by the designs of this MUD. 2. Playing evils is not standing around chatting all the time, thats what goods are for. 3. Yep, Zhentil Keep is deserted alot. (Thats because the evils that are on are out doing stuff rather than sitting and chatting) 4. Not all evils care to look for goods to rp with, believe it or not goods annoy the heck out of most evils.
Enjoy these finer points to consider and have fun,

N.R.

Glim · Post by **Glim** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:04 am

Treck, and on a minor note: Nysan, I have only one thing I can say about both of those.

*clap*

*clap*

*clap*

And just to say, that is not sarcastic, I mean every one.

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:11 am

2. Playing evils is not standing around chatting all the time, thats what goods are for.

Uh. No. This is a roleplay mud. Goods and evils roleplay, which involves chatting, plain and simple.

Not to mention the amount of time a lot of evils spend in the WD market chatting.

~Danica

Jerigo · Post by **Jerigo** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:27 am

First off, I have to give a sincere thank you to Tretch for his comments. Believe it or not, I was actually hoping that there would be more to read when I got to the end.

Anyway, I do have a couple of comments about all this. First of all, I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with judging people based on their equipment. When you see someone walking down the street, can't you often make snap judgements in your head about the person even though your judgement might be based purely on the clothes they are wearing? Don't you think something different when you see a wealthy businessman in his best crisp suit than you do when you see a homeless man wearing old tattered clothing? I think it's a natural thing, and I don't think it's a stretch at all for characters in FK to do the same. I know that when I get equipment for my characters (well...character), in the back of my head I'm always thinking of the impressions that I would send with each item. But enough about that.

As I just mentioned, I only have one character on FK. It's pretty much always been my nature in muds to just have one character and put any mud time into that one character. But given that FK seems to offer a wider range of unique classes I've been putting serious thought into starting up a second character. But if I do make an alt I've already decided that it should be very different than my current one, which means making him evil.

Though I haven't experienced them firsthand, the situations that Mele described have gone through my head as possibilities, and they have been discouraging to me. When you make a good character, I think you're at some degree aware that since the people you'll be interacting with most are also good, then there will be someone there to lend a helping hand when you need it, and you don't have to worry much about people trying to shoot you down while you're still getting settled in. Whereas when I think about creating an evil character (again, this is based on my assumptions, not my experience) I worry about being constantly frustrated by the fact that I can't get help from the goodies (they wouldn't help me because I'm evil) and I also can't get help from the evils (they wouldn't help me because they're evil).

These are just some of the thoughts that have come to mind from the perspective of someone who is a little hesitant about putting the time into making an evil character, and it seems like this is the point of view that could use some coaxing if the evil population is going to get boosted at all. Before I sign off let me acknowledge the fact that I'm probably not giving the evils nearly enough credit. In my mind I pretty much picture you as having a cutthroat "every man for himself" mentality, which might not be fair to you.

Well, I hope this helps shed a light on another perspective. To be honest, I'm not really sure what exactly I was trying to accomplish by writing this, but I guess other people can bounce their thoughts off all this and give me some feedback, or tell me where my thinking is wrong.

Glim · Post by **Glim** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:09 am

Jerigo, your mostly right, evils pretty much do not like helping others. But, many of them do not mind working WITH others if it benefits them both, all the while knowing not to trust the other person. Many of my evils are loners most of the time, but they also have allies, people who they RP with and who they like to RP with. There is always someone who will not help your character, goods among them, but its how you persevere and RP through that that defines the character. Get a faith, join a guild, something like that, and you will be with people who, if not trust, at least have some sense of security. You might not be safe from those on the inside, but it can help quite alot against those on the outside.

Make an evil, you will never know until you try.

Isaldur · Post by **Isaldur** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:23 am

Why not just encourage people to play whatever they feel like playing at the time instead of complaining that no one is playing this or that?

Tretch · Post by **Tretch** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:42 pm

Pretty sure that goes without saying Isaldur...people are just commenting on how that choice has meant hardly any evils, thus no balance really. Not sure what Nysan is saying, seems a bit off at best to me but I could be misunderstanding. As for not rping and.....just questing I guess? Wait, you dont like "goods", so maybe just training? Seems a bit boring but its your choice.

Alright, since my last post was ridiculously long and I hate those...this will be short. A possible problem could be that many people go too much extreme when they "switch to the dark side". Just because you created an evil doesnt mean you have to be the most cutthroat, nasty thing to cross the streets of ZK. Sure, its true for some...but doesnt have to be. Above all, there as to be SOME level of respect still held for other players. I dont mean completely change your rp, its not WD...its ZK. I am just saying its not crazy of you to loosen your rp just a bit to help someone out. Sometimes its not horrible to think more OOC than IC. Sometimes Tretch has to think more of the player than the character....its crazy to some I am sure. I have seen evils act the same way to one another that some groups do in WD. Its about having fun...if your only idea of rping an evil is to just be the most nasty, cruel thing to walk the streets...plan on being incredibly lonely and having noone to show your nasty, cruel rp to.

To clarify real quick for Jerigo, I agree. Snap judgements happen and are a must as IRL. What I was briefly mentioning is a somewhat bullying of low level characters just because you know codewise that you can.

Tretch

Akela · Post by **Akela** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:21 pm

Mele wrote:2. Playing evils is not standing around chatting all the time, thats what goods are for.

Uh. No. This is a roleplay mud. Goods and evils roleplay, which involves chatting, plain and simple.

Not to mention the amount of time a lot of evils spend in the WD market chatting.

~Danica

Evils find goods amusing... ^.^ At least mine find them amusing.

Tychina · Post by **Tychina** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:47 pm

There is another option to look at here.There is after all, more then two alignments. If you want to play somethign other then a goody, but, like me, feel you do not have what it takes to go pure evil, there are neutral alignments. Try one, it will give you a feel for it, and if you like it, then maybe you will change your mind about playing an evil.

As for evil's needing folk to rp with, again, there are more then just evil and good if you feel you cannot rp with goods. There are those of us of neutral or chaotic neutral alignments, we are not pure evil, not pure good, our worlds are more grey then black and white (atleast to me), and there are plenty around, both in WD and ZK.

Tazmin · Post by **Tazmin** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:27 am

Now that I am over my FK burnout and am back to playing again I was curious if we allow alignment shifts here. I took that thing Mystra put in the polls section and Tazmin turned out N/G. Changed as she got older I guess. =)

The main problem I have is with my main wizard char. She is true neutral, and tested as such on that fun little quiz, but I am wondering if she is drifting into N/E. Is extreme apathy neutral or evil?

The questions such as. Would you betray your king/ruler for money? (Yes.)
Would you help defend your comunity in an attack? (No)
Would you betray your friends? (I don't have any. =p)
Would you lead your communeity? (No, politics means nothing.)

She has no focus. She cares about nothing, unless she gets something out of it. She will help the poor, as long as they don't annoy her. If they annoy her she makes their lives even more unpleasent. She will keep her word even if it kills her though, which is why she will almost never give it.

She does not do the bad things because they are bad. If people have good things happen to them because of what she does, well then peachy keen for them. If they suffer excessive misery because she accidently set fire to there apple orchard so what? She just doesen't care.

So is my poor wizard lost to the dark side or is she still neutral?

Argentia · Post by **Argentia** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:48 am

It has always been my belief that this is a neutral attitude, because I also have a TN character that acts like this.

Remember that you can't stake everything about your character on a 20-some-odd question quiz. Characters are more deep than that.

Quizzes will be wrong sometimes.

But I RP my character with the "For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction" theory in mind. For example, helping somebody would require a reward. If there are too many people doing good, somebody should do evil(And it could be her), and vice versa. But if you only care about yourself, then you are not being selfless and "good", nor are you being malicious and "evil", and so you are well balanced.

Concerning law, she does not obey its spirit or letter, like a lawful person, but she does not outwardly(Or inwardly) reject or go against it like a chaotic person. She is indifferent towards it. If her actions and the law agree, then goodie goodie gumdrops. But if she needs to get something done and the law won't allow it, tough cookies, she's doing it anyway.

I hope this helped!

Before I go, I shall leave you with the words of Lao Tzu,

That which shrinks
Must first expand.
That which fails
Must first be strong.
That which is cast down
Must first be raised.
Before receiving
There must be giving.

Believe in the balance, my friend! There are two sides of a coin, but it can always land on its edge!

Gantar · Post by **Gantar** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:20 pm

On my first character I made it was thief and it was lawful good. Then I started trying to steal from evil place because that is what good thieves do. and I was wondering if that is what made me go to chaotic evil. I just tried to use my thief skills and it turned me evil. so I am a bit confussed

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:44 am

Actually, I have seen more than my share of "good" thieves. They will say "Well, I only steal from evil people." But what most of them really meant is "I'll only steal from evil PCs, and mobs too." Most mobs are neutral, possibly even good in a good aligned town. Stealing from them is definitely going to affect someone's hidden align. These poor schlub mob merchants ICly have families to feed, etc. Stealing from them is as self-centered and "evil" as stealing from a PC priest of Ilmater. And if your thief was Lawful Good, it would be totally OOC for him to steal from anyone. The lawful part in that alignment means you respect and obey the laws, even try to champion them. Stealing is a blatant disregard for the law, and would go way against that align.

Honestly, there's nothing that says any good thief has to steal... at all. There are many other uses and trades for a good aligned rogue to ply, to say it is "expected" for a thief to steal is just an excuse for "I want to steal."

It has been said, and shown, on these boards before. The imms keep a real time log of every thiefly act a thief char does, steal, backstab, etc. And the imms could, at any point, decide after looking at a char's rap sheet to shift their align. As I understand, it is not something the game automatically does, the imms have to change your visible align, so if it changes on your score sheet to an evil align, chances are, the imms have the logs to back it up.

Telk · Post by **Telk** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:42 pm

Lawful neutral is a alignmment that will obey all laws no matter what. Stealing is certainly against the law and is a chaotic action.

Lawful neutral isn't a "Good" alignment either just a neutral who obeys the law.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:07 am

Telk wrote:Lawful neutral is a alignmment that will obey all laws no matter what. Stealing is certainly against the law and is a chaotic action.

Lawful neutral isn't a "Good" alignment either just a neutral who obeys the law.

That's an old (and partly different) debate, but I thought I would mention it here. In my opinion, lawful does not mean "will obey laws", and there are several archetypes that confirm that this interpretation is not consistent.

(1) Lawful good paladin. If lawful meant "will obey laws", that would mean that, as soon as (s)he sets foot in Zhentil Keep, the paladin would have to obey the Lords there, attack all good-aligned priests, and so on. It does not make much sense. Relating lawful to laws would mean that a character's alignment changes as he moves from city to city.

(2) Lawful evil assassins. LE is the typical alignment for assassins: they follow their rules, and always complete contracts. That's what makes them lawful... They certainly don't follow laws (as, in most cities, murder is outlawed).

I'd rather say that lawful means : you follow the rules that you set for yourself, the rules you promised to follow; you are generally orderly and like things that are well planned; you think that hierarchical structures and order are necessary to achieve greater goals. For example, I can see a rogue loyal to his/her friends/group/adventuring party, who would not lie about treasure found, who likes to establish precise marching order and plans before attacking/exploring, and who has the greater good as a good, being lawful good in alignment, even though he would not give that much though about the local laws.

Alignment

Playing Evil Aligned Characters

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Alignment and Alignment drift.