Silverymoon and you

[Casamir]

I was wondering if it might be interesting to add a check for mind shielding to the silverymoon guards/wards. I can understand restricting evils to certain temples and such. However, I wonder with the game having changed as much as it has, if a cart blanch banning of evils here is necessary. ZK does not like good people, but it does not bar them. Maybe it's time to let evils in, if not welcomingly, at least not absolutely preventing their presence if they are scrupulous about it. Even a one strike system, where you are tolerated until you reveal your natural inclinations and are put onto that no-entry list. It could even be the reverse, doing a long and involved quest similar to casting, and earning a probational city travel visa of evilness.

[Nylo]

They aren't allowed in because of the mythal protecting the city. ZK doesn't have one, hence why goodies can get in. ICly, whether or not the guards would let them in, the mythal will keep out any evils.

[Casamir]

Maybe old age is creeping up on the Mythal, maybe a reawakened dark god smites it. Nonetheless, I'd still think it's a change worth considering.

[Nylo]

I'd rather not see us deviate any more from the canon Realms than we already are, especially not such a major change. That's just my personal opinion, though.

[Casamir]

I can certainly appreciate that view, so finding that canonically sound mcguffin of +10 exception aside, in many other aspects of the game I echo that opinion.

[Tyeslan]

Actually from what I can find on Mythal's and SM is: For example, Silverymoon's mythal excluded evil dragons.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mythal

It doesn't actually say that the mythal exludes all evils, just dragons.

[Tamryn]

Unless evil characters have an actual reason to enter Silverymoon, I'd rather see appropriate trainers (or whatever they want there) added elsewhere.

[Hrosskell]

Demons, devils, dragons, drow, duergar, giants, goblinoids, mind flayers, orcs and trolls of evil intent are magically compelled to leave the city and never return.

Taken from forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Wards_of_Silverymoon, assumedly linked from FRP'sG or Silver Marches referenced on the page. It's in a nice list format that implies it's sourced from a source book.

Doesn't mention humans, elves, or true dwarves or their alignments. Also it's a compulsion, that wording carrying a pretty heavy weight in source books (see mind-affecting), not an actual "can not" but "would not."

That being said, slavish representation of FR is for the birds and not something we advertise being. I don't have much at stake in this one, just throwing the information out there.

[Casamir]

Which if you had a pretty ring that shielded your mind... It comes full circle, like the ring. (Had to mention it, you might say I was compelled.)

[Anguin]

Here's the quote I found:

The first ward prevents any evil and death magics from being cast as well as any portals from being constructed. Demons, devils, dragons, drow, duergar, giants, goblinoids, mind flayers, orcs and trolls of evil intent are magically compelled to leave the city and never return. All creatures within the boundary of the mythal are also unable to become invisible, always know when they are being scryed upon and are protected from negative energy and evil.

That said... I think evil characters should not be given the option to cast spells in Silverymoon under any circumstances. Evil characters (like, you know... humans) could be allowed in, I guess, if on their best behavior... like, if you do something that makes a guard even vaguely suspicious, the cast 'detect evil' and throw you out. And evils should be barred from entering the House Invincible... Hmm. Why would evils want to go to Silverymoon, anyway? Just my thoughts.

[Kaaurk]

Evil characters don't really need to cast spells in Silverymoon. It is not like a good character is going to try to smite them inside the walls so theres no real reason to worry about it.

but there are quest lines that you need to be able to enter Silverymoon to finish. The two weapon fighting one from Waterdeep and teh express delivery quest need something from the city.

also it would be nice to be able to get a griffon that isn't noticeably evil.

[Hrosskell]

If we're talking about IC motivations over OOC ones (quests, rewards, etc.), Silverymoon is a center of bardic knowledge, learning, and culture at large. Those are not inherently good things--or things an evil gentleman thief would throw away, at least. I -don't- see a blundering orc barbarian trapsing down the streets of Silverymoon, but I could see Graham taking off his mask and tucking in his symbol to indulge in a performance Moriarty-style.

[Rhangalas]

I have to second Nylo on this one. I would rather the game stick to canon whenever possible.

If the issue is that Silverymoon breaks quest lines, then I think the best solution would be to alter the quests that are affected.

[Lathander]

I think Nylo has the right on this one.

[Kaaurk]

Here's the quote I found:

The first ward prevents any evil and death magics from being cast as well as any portals from being constructed. Demons, devils, dragons, drow, duergar, giants, goblinoids, mind flayers, orcs and trolls of evil intent are magically compelled to leave the city and never return. All creatures within the boundary of the mythal are also unable to become invisible, always know when they are being scryed upon and are protected from negative energy and evil.

That said... I think evil characters should not be given the option to cast spells in Silverymoon under any circumstances. Evil characters (like, you know... humans) could be allowed in, I guess, if on their best behavior... like, if you do something that makes a guard even vaguely suspicious, the cast 'detect evil' and throw you out. And evils should be barred from entering the House Invincible... Hmm. Why would evils want to go to Silverymoon, anyway? Just my thoughts.

I'm fairly certain everything we've found doesn't say that it bars all evil characters from the city.

[Gwain]

I think its equally important that we observe fk canon as well as fr. In that, we should leave Silverymoon as it is, but we should provide trainers with the skills evils would not get otherwise elsewhere. Anyway, an orc going into Silverymoon is sort of like a lobster wandering into a seafood restaurant off the street, delicious when boiled but unlikely to survive for long.

[Rhangalas]

I think its equally important that we observe fk canon as well as fr. In that, we should leave Silverymoon as it is, but we should provide trainers with the skills evils would not get otherwise elsewhere. Anyway, an orc going into Silverymoon is sort of like a lobster wandering into a seafood restaurant off the street, delicious when boiled but unlikely to survive for long.

My thoughts exactly. I think some of the main problems are that Silverymoon has trainers that are exclusive to the city (mainly high-level druidic stuff) and a specialist guild or two that do not exist anywhere else. If the Blazing Sands was added, then it's just transmuters that don't have an evils guild, I think.

[Kaaurk]

I don't think anyone ever said Orcs or Drow or the like. What would it hurt really? As far as I can tell it was old evils grouping and raiding places in the game that caused Silverymoon to be banned to them.

[Kinni]

I'm all for keeping Silverymoon closed, but their needs to be balance. Perhaps a few of the regular denizens of Zhentil Keep begin working on a ward to keep out goods? I'd be up for that RP. Hell, Ki would be happy to front the bill and effort of gathering wizards, clerics, and components for such a lofty goal. Evils are evils, yes. But, they are good players behind them. No reason to punish the player for aiming to provide a little RP to the mix. I'm happy to see an influx in evil characters since I first started - they create the ever necessary turmoil that keeps RP exciting. What's a dungeon without an evil madman (or woman) behind it? How can the goodies save the world without a few evils in the world hoping to destroy it in the first place. Overall, keep Silverymoon as is, but make sure quests that are offered to evils do not intend to send them to Silverymoon as frequently as we have seen. Sure, we can bribe a goodie to fetch us an item, but not always depending on code, and that still leaves concern for skills/spells.

[Gwain]

I don't think anyone ever said Orcs or Drow or the like. What would it hurt really? As far as I can tell it was old evils grouping and raiding places in the game that caused Silverymoon to be banned to them.

I was mainly using orcs as an example, seeing as they would be a prime example of something that would never be acceptable in Silverymoon. As for other evils..well I still think adding the skills they seek to other areas is more beneficial than just opening up a goodly city to them. I really can't say that I care either way, I just think its lazy that a solution some people are putting forward is that Silverymoon has to be opened just because the set rules in canon allude to it being so. I think taking the time to volunteer to adjust other areas and add skills to proper mobiles would be better. Myself, I'm very much done building things for the mud as a whole, I've done my part where I thought it would be of use, I would bid you to do something to remedy the problems of the day without having to drastically alter our own policies in Silverymoon. As I said, of fk and fr canon there are tonnes of pieces in the game that many love and revile, some make sense, some are tedious nonsensical drivel made gods-know-how-long-ago for reasons either known or forgotten to us, we just need to endure them or seek ways within their confines to improve the game...like adding skills for evils, guilds for evils, quests for evils etc elsewhere.