Improved Critical

[Atraos]

Morning

Not sure a bug as such...

When training Improved critical I have noticed no improvement in chance of critical or damage from critical.
I think this is because I am using a Keen blade?

Should it not stack with this?

Thanks

[Tamryn]

I do not believe this is a bug. From the SRD description of the Keen Edge spell:

Multiple effects that increase a weapon’s threat range (such as the keen edge spell and the Improved Critical feat) don’t stack.

While we don't have this spell, that statement seems to refer to anything that can increase the threat range.

Previously discussed here although there was no definitive resolution.

Edit: however I was unable to confirm this behaviour as I don't know of an improved critical trainer for long spikes, the only keen weapon I could find.

Edit 2: I have updated the help file for Improved Critical Feat (pending approval) to note that the effects will not stack.

[Tamryn]

Hmm, now I'm unsure.

I tested with a keen weapon, (101982) a heavy iron pickaxe with a keenly sharp head:

Primary Weapon: 1d4+6 Hit Bonus: +4 Critical: 19-20/x4

19-20/x4 is the normal threat range / multiplier for a long spike (confirmed with (22560) a heavy steel warpick, which does not have the keen flag). So, is the keen flag not working, or is it just not showing correctly on score?

After training improved critical, the threat range did not change:

Primary Weapon: 1d4+6 Hit Bonus: +4 Critical: 19-20/x4

However, the improved threat range for a double-edged blade does show correctly in score:

Primary Weapon: 1d8+5 Hit Bonus: +5 Critical: 17-20/x2

I don't think the keen flag should stack with improved critical. However, I'm not sure it is doing anything at all right now, so I'm going to leave this bug here for someone else to confirm.

[Atraos]

The way I see things though would be as follows:-

The blade is so well made that it is extra sharp and more likely to cause serious damage--Through Crafting, not a spell.

The improved critical skill is a degree of training etc that allows the wielder of the weapon to know where to hit on a target to cause the most damage.

From an IC level I dont see how one would affect the other? If I have a terribly sharp weapon, and know best where to stick it would it not be better than either of the above individually?

If it cant be done then fair enough. I just wasnt sure if my point was made in the first instance.

Cheers

[Tamryn]

I made a mistake in my previous post. The standard threat range of a long spike is 20, not 19-20.

A character without the improved crit feat holding (22560) a heavy steel warpick (It is a heavy pick in the long spikes category of weapons): Primary Weapon: 1d6+3 Hit Bonus: +3 Critical: x4.

A character with improved crit (long spikes) holding the same weapon: Primary Weapon: 1d6+5 Hit Bonus: +5 Critical: 19-20/x4.

Next, a character without the feat holding a keen weapon, (101982) a heavy iron pickaxe with a keenly sharp head (It is a masterwork heavy pick in the long spikes category of weapons): Primary Weapon: 1d4+4 Hit Bonus: +2 Critical: 19-20/x4.

The same weapon, a character with the feat: Primary Weapon: 1d4+6 Hit Bonus: +4 Critical: 19-20/x4

So far, assuming Improved Critical and keen do not stack, this is correct.

To test the original report, I did some empirical testing.

Firstly, to check my method, I used (11400) a black steel longsword: It is a long sword in the double-edged blades category of weapons (Primary Weapon: 1d8+5 Hit Bonus: +5 Critical: 17-20/x2). My test character had Improved Critical: double-edged blades, so with a threat range of 17-20, the theoretical chance of a critical hit is 20/4 = 5 = 20%. In practice, I scored a critical hit on 19/100 = 19% of hits, close enough to say this is working correctly. (view full log)

Then I used (101982) a heavy iron pickaxe with a keenly sharp head: It is a masterwork heavy pick in the long spikes category of weapons. (Primary Weapon: 1d4+6 Hit Bonus: +4 Critical: 19-20/x4). The test character had the Improved Critical: long spikes feat. This weapon has the keen flag set, and with a threat range of 19-20 should have 20/2 = 10% chance of a critical hit. In practice, I scored a critical hit on 10/100 = 10% of hits, which is also as expected. (view full log).

Finally, I stripped Improved Critical from the test character and checked both weapons in score. The 101982 pickaxe with the keen flag had a threat range of 19-20. A non-keen weapon, (22560) a heavy steel warpick (It is a heavy pick in the long spikes category of weapons) shows a threat range of 20. Both as expected.

I conclude:

• The Improved Critical feat and the Keen flag are both working correctly.
• Improved Critical does not stack with the keen flag.

Based on this and the previous discussion (linked above), I am going to move this report to Unconfirmed bugs, for two reasons:

• This currently works the way SRD says it should work.
• Allowing Improved Crit and keen to stack could result in a weapon having a base threat range of 18-20 (20/3), x2 for feat = 15-20 (20/6), x2 for keen = 9-20 (20/12). This seems excessively overpowered.

While your IC explanation of why these should stack is reasonable, at some point some realism needs to be sacrificed for balance. (c.f.: flying mages not being able to sit up in the sky and throw fireballs at a mob while never being hit.)

[Atraos]

Thank you for looking into this.

I fully appreciate and accept your comments which make sense in regards to balance.

Cheers