Spicing up FK (New classes and New options)

[Gwain]

I don't know about races, but I would not mind prestige classes being introduced. For races we'd need a larger playerbase otherwise you'd run into the snags we had before. Prestige classes would give the chance to develop a character further beyond their current class and open up new training or rp options for them. But for races if they were considered, I always liked the loxo, savage elephant men from the south always seemed interesting to me for roleplay.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Loxo

[Timaeus]

Wow...a spirited defense of powergaming. I tried...Cya guys. Have fun.

Your seemingly compelling need to be overly dramatic is very tiring. Give it a break, people are not always going to agree with your views nor should they be required to in order for you to play this game.

[Lylena]

Wow...a spirited defense of powergaming. I tried...Cya guys. Have fun.

Your seemingly compelling need to be overly dramatic is very tiring. Give it a break, people are not always going to agree with your views nor should they be required to in order for you to play this game.

Can we try and stay on topic, please? There's no need, really.

Barbarian was talked about being in the works for some time, personally I'd like to see it come to life! Naturally options are the spice of life, but then again sometimes you can get too many. I like Besky's idea about subclasses for the classes we currently have, where classes other than wizards can find their own specialty guilds. I imagine it'd give your plain ol' cleric something different. A tempuran priest would more than likely lean towards Inquisitor while an Ilmateri priest would likely be a Physician. Same class, different leaning. Though, that'd mean different spells available for different guilds. Would be interesting to see which spells would go where beyond the obvious if it did go that route. I do like the option of being your average every day cleric still without specializing. Be the mage of clerics...

[Solaghar]

I was specifically responsible for adding the newest race to the game, the Svirfneblin or Deep Gnomes, It took me a long time, and I created 300 vnums worth of area as their starting position (200 vnums for Blingdenstone + 100 for their special training area). In addition I also created several other areas to make them more viable (Acid Aerie and Blobdlipbop Harbor) and saw to completion another area (Ruins of House Oblodra) and the total revamp and addition of quests to two more areas (The Dark Dominion outside of Menzoberranzan). This was a lot of work, however when Deep Gnomes came into the game, they had the infrastructure set up to make them a viable and interesting addition to the game. Their role was to be as foils and rivals to the nearby Drow. Thus, adding them deepened the RP in the Underdark and made all kinds of new RP possibilities emerge. Very few people have chosen to try to play Deep Gnomes thus far however. The Underdark is a more dangerous and limited playing area, though now it's a million times better than in the past (mostly thanks to *cough cough* myself and Duranamir).

So when people ask for new races, what I have to ask is, are you going to put in the work to build the infrastructure to make them more than just another race starting in Waterdeep? Will you encourage their unique culture? Do they actually have a unique culture that is going to introduce some new kind of RP dynamic into the game? For example, Wemics, Centaurs and those Loxos Gwain posted look cool, but they have almost no culture or relationships with other races. Most of them are known specifically for their non-interaction with other races. So we have to ask, is adding them really deepening the RP with the other races?

The same goes for new classes. It's great to add a new class, and honestly it's not that much work. But that's not the problem. The problem is building the guilds to support the players. the quests to grant them their advancement, and progress. Harroghty and I are the two most active builders, and apart from us, there are simply very few people actively building more than one area. Casamir is working on a new area (and doing a great job) and I hope he will advance and build more stuff. But builders spend their own spare time to do these things. Why do I build in the Underdark? Because it's what I'm interested in. Why does Harroghty build in Cormyr? Again, he likes it. So if you want to add new races, new classes... do the work. So far as I know, barbarians are actually coded, it's just no one has ever built them a guild. Do you want barbarians? Apply to build a barbarian guild. Then actually complete it. Then the game can have barbarians and it'll be awesome, I'd love to see them in the game myself. But it's not as simple as just asking the admins to do it. Mask has very limited time online for the hard-coding, and so far as I know most of the immortals and staff are not active builders themselves.

When I wanted the Deep Gnomes in, I asked if I could build their hometown and then I went even further to make sure they had a strong and unique culture and experience here. And so far, few people have really given it a shot. So if you want to really make a new race that isn't specifically overpowered or something, seems like there's a lot of work to do, more than what I did, to make a viable and popular new race. I encourage anyone interested to try! Building is the best way to improve the game.

P.S. if one person specifically wants to play a unique race that possibility has always existed through the application system. For example there is a Tabaxi player, and there have been others I don't remember at the moment...

[Beskytter]

Here here to Solaghar,

I fully agree that building is a great way to improve the game, and that if we had more people to do it, we could have some of the things we ask for.
So on that note, if anyone here has read, likes, and wants to discuss my idea for specialization classes...I would like to hear it. PM me about them. If I get enough positive feedback, I will see what I can do to continue learning to build so that perhaps I can take on that challenge.

[Solaghar]

Adding prestige classes would be a huge undertaking. It would require serious changes to the class system and the hardcode, as well as the creation of presumably multiple prestige classes for each base class. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but I seriously doubt that this is going to get done in the near future. Mask is our only guy with the code knowledge, and his time is really precious with his baby and work, so the way the game works now is probably how it's going to work for the foreseeable future. Adding new classes like sorceror and barbarian is completely doable as it's just an adjustment of existing things, but a prestige or class specialization (apart from feats) would be tough. Now... what you could do is definitely argue for more feats to specialize fighters and other classes in that sense. Propose some feat trees and that would be doable if their effects are something we can deal with in terms of the code, especially things that are variations on existing code (feats that add bonuses to AC, resistances, skills, hit points, spells, for example, are easy)

[Beskytter]

Can't rain on a parade that has no floats, so no worries there.
If working more on a feat based specialization is the route to take, then that's how it'd have to be.
Special guild quests could be offered to characters, and in their running those characters are granted the feats. Improvements to those things most important to that prestige class, without the title of "Shield Fighter" or "Inquisitor" tacked into their score sheet.

Still think specialization is the best route, aside from adding in the sorcerer class, as that seems to be a popular topic. Prestige classes (I dislike using that term) can really help the higher level characters in terms of something to do. Say after a certain level, for 's&'g lets say 40, when you go to your normal guild hall the recruiter will then offer you a chance to expand on your training.
You run the storyline of quests that deal with this is the skill, and how to best use it, and certain feats are given to you. So working with my Shield fighter, since that is what I know, new feats for shieldwork bonuses, ac bonus, dodge bonus, etc. Are given to my fighter after about 2 RL hours of storyline questing. I can live with that.
Thoughts?

[Harroghty]

I only have a moment, but I agree that feats offer the most bang for your buck. If one wants a barbarian, then a feat tree makes that style of fighter; the same could be done with any class or guild.

I also pause at talk of new races, but mostly because of the strong chance of only seeing more short, tall, green, or hairy humans. I am interested in more RP though, and not entirely opposed.

[Kinni]

My DM back in the day was lax about races because it created a greater chance to explore the character's background and create some really dynamic interactions between our players/characters. I think I had a half elf - half dragon once. She was even turned into a vampire on one of the campaigns. Needless to say, she kicked butt despite the inconveniences that come with vampirism. I'd like to see more scales and evil races. I think the two evil races are currently Drow and Tiefling, but I have a Drow and can't really get in any RP because of how long it will take me to be strong enough to get to the surface. I've always wanted to make a Yuan-ti! But' don't harvest the eyes!

Anyway, that's just my two sense. I have a fetish towards the unique, though, always trying to experience the rare and different.

[Tamryn]

I think sorcerer has been suggested before, but with the way spell memorisation works on FK, would they be much different from mages? It's already possible to memorise a spell you forgot in a couple if minutes with meditate.

[Solaghar]

One of the reasons we don't push unique races in character creation is a kind of game-trope where everyone wants to be the unique character. Thus, unique characters become the normal and well-RPed races who fit the generic stereotype become the outlier. Think of it as the Drizzt Syndrome. Everyone knows Drow are the most evil race imaginable! So I'll be the "good" Drow. That will be a unique take on things. And it is... once. Thus people keep trying to get more and more 'unique' to stand out from the perceived crowd. A good orc. A goblin mage of Lathander. A dwarf druid. A wemic bard. An adopted sun elf raised by halforc parents. Anyone can think up one of these ideas simply by taking the idea of a race and choosing something in opposition. A half-elf, half-dragon is fine in a campaign, but imagine if people could create it here? How could we conceivably limit people's options such that the unique races (which are often powerful, thus also attracting powergamers) didn't end up outnumbering the normal ones? We might find half-dragons outnumbering human adventurers. Kismet was the best idea the admins had as to how to limit that. And that's how it works. Essentially, the standard races and alignments are 'free'. We want these characters to be common. The less common races are more 'expensive'. Even if we did add a new race, if it was something like yuan-ti, an evil, secretive and antagonistic race, they would have a really high kismet cost to ensure that few people would play them. Again, this is based on the kind of world we have essentially hoped to have here.

Another reason to have a human-grounded world is to simply keep things realistic in terms of RP. Most people don't RP other races to any particular degree of accuracy. My own pet peeve is half-elves as nothing more than humans with pointy ears, but everyone does it. The Elf who knows nothing about Elves. The goblin who talks like a cute child and plays for comedic effect. So, at least when people are RPing humans you can't complain that they're doing it improperly, haha. I believe this was part of the reason that in 2nd edition D&D limited the advancement options of non-humans once you reached the higher levels. They wanted to keep it a human-centered world, where humans were the powers, and others were really the supporting cast.

[Hrosskell]

I actually saw that effect with Cahir. It felt unique to be a big, burly, says-what-he-means human warrior. That being said, I think that actually allowing classes to do what they say they can--berserking, shrugging off huge damage in the case of the barbarian--is important. It reflects my idea of the game code and RP interaction completely; the code is there to reinforce and enrich the stories, not to detract from it--and with the right approach and mindset, that's exactly how it works. It gives you that time frame to RP becoming stronger, face new challenges, etc; and the game world is steeped in the same story telling as our own imm-driven plots or player-crafted stories.

I'm a big fan of new classes, and I'd be up to write descriptions and dialogue for supporting areas, but I've never been able to grasp the actual coding part. It destroys my brain and stymies my creative flow. x_x;

[Solaghar]

Barbarians are already coded and have been so for like 10 years. They probably need some tinkering to bring them up to date since I doubt anyone has done it for a few years, and they'd need the damage resistance added (presumably easy enough, we already have damage resistance coded) but they're already here. They just need someone to actually build a barbarian's guild.

Code: Select all

Guild: Barbarians
Nickname: Barba
Filename: Barbarians.gld
Skills:
 kick               ( 1) swim               ( 1) bows               ( 1)
 brawling           ( 1) chains             ( 1) clubs              ( 1)
 crossbows          ( 1) double-edged blades ( 1) great blades       ( 1)
 great chains       ( 1) lines              ( 1) long axes          ( 1)
 long spikes        ( 1) mounted polearms   ( 1) polearms           ( 1)
 rope weapons       ( 1) shieldwork         ( 1) short axes         ( 1)
 short blades       ( 1) short spikes       ( 1) single-edged blades ( 1)
 slings             ( 1) staves             ( 1) thrown projectiles ( 1)
 thrusting blades   ( 1) whips              ( 1) ancient            ( 1)
 aquan              ( 1) auran              ( 1) common             ( 1)
 darkspeak          ( 1) draconic           ( 1) dwarven            ( 1)
 elven              ( 1) giant              ( 1) gith               ( 1)
 gnoll              ( 1) gnome              ( 1) goblin             ( 1)
 halfling           ( 1) ignan              ( 1) insectoid          ( 1)
 orcish             ( 1) sylvan             ( 1) terran             ( 1)
 dig                ( 2) aid                ( 4) cook               ( 5)
 handle animal      ( 5) ignite             ( 5) mount              ( 5)
 doorbash           ( 8) listen             (10) sense motive       (10)
 spot               (10) second attack      (13) rescue             (14)
 climb              (15) concentration      (15) dodge              (15)
 punch              (19) third attack       (20) disarm             (22)
 parry              (24) bash               (28) fourth attack      (29)
 rage               (30) search             (30) dual wield         (32)
 slice              (32) fifth attack       (35) spellcraft         (40)
 riposte            (44)
Feats:
 armor proficiency  ( 2) arterial strike    (-1) combat casting     (-1)
 crippling strike   (-1) empower spell      (-1) enlarge spell      (-1)
 extend spell       (-1) extra turning      (-1) greater spell focus (-1)
 greater weapon focus (-1) greater weapon specialisation (-1) heavy armour optimisation (-1)
 heighten spell     (-1) improved evasion   (-1) maximize spell     (-1)
 mind over body     (-1) opportunist        (-1) persistent spell   (-1)
 quicken spell      (-1) shield proficiency ( 1) silent spell       (-1)
 slippery mind      (-1) spell focus        (-1) spell penetration  (-1)
 spellcasting prodigy (-1) still spell        (-1) toughness          ( 5)
 twin spell         (-1) weapon specialisation (-1)

The rage skill would probably need to be recoded to make it more useful, remove the spellcasting feats, maybe change around some of the other skills, but the class exists and one could theoretically be a barbarian right now (though it would kinda suck since rage is way nerfed compared to what barbarians should have). The question isn't about setting up the class. It's about making the guild to teach people to be barbarians. I encourage anyone who is interested to go for it. The best way anyone can improve the game is by building. If you'll build the guild hall, I don't see why the admins wouldn't want to bring barbarians into the game.

[Rhangalas]

If it came to adding new races, I would like to see:

Fey'ri - Elvish version of tieflings.
Tanarukk - Orcish version of tieflings.

If it came to adding new classes, I would like to see:

Evil version of rangers and paladins.
Barbarian
Sorcerer
Monk

[Trillarel]

If it came to adding new races, I would like to see:

Fey'ri - Elvish version of tieflings.
Tanarukk - Orcish version of tieflings.

Agreed, as elves cannot be evil in FK.

[Timaeus]

Agreed, as elves cannot be evil in FK.

There have been evil elves in FK, probably through a detailed application and approval from the staff.

[Dranso]

I'd like to go back to what Solaghar said. I've always wanted to be a builder and help out with the game that has taken up a lot of my time for the past 11 or so years. I know absolutely nothing about coding though and I figured that no one on the game would really have time enough to teach someone with no experience. Is it possible for someone like me to become a builder and help out with things such as a the barbarians guild/baldur's gate, areas that have been in the works since I started playing?

[Harroghty]

We have a long tradition of teaching new builders. (Mask and Waukeen helped me a lot when I started.)

The big thing is being ready to really try.

[Larethiel]

Some unique races will need an understanding of history and culture of their baseraces. Such as the case with Fey'ri. I'm not certain if that would be a good addition to the game for the moment. Fey'ri are not mere evil elves but have a lot of lore behind them.

[Vibius]

Some unique races will need an understanding of history and culture of their baseraces. Such as the case with Fey'ri. I'm not certain if that would be a good addition to the game for the moment. Fey'ri are not mere evil elves but have a lot of lore behind them.

I agree with Larethiel, some races are so outlandish that they would need a lot of support of area support behind them, just for them. Or they would just be another rare race with alignment restrictions.