Instant Death Spells and PVP

[Gwain]

Personally, I think its the stupidest and rudest thing ever to begin a pvp with an instant death spell, so I would like to suggest that instant death spells not work during pvp against another player unless that player consents codewise or until the saves associated with instant death spells are worked out (They may be bugged)

This is based on observing at least one instance of an instant death spell being used at the start of a pvp and hearing about it being initiated recently. I think it counters proper and balanced rp to kill your oppoent outright with relative ease.

[Kinni]

I have been the "victim" of an instant death spell at the first part round of a PvP and support this. I would maybe suggest that the instant death spells can only be used after a certain number of rounds into the fight? There is no need to disable them entirely, at least in my opinion, simply for the fact that someone has put in the time and effort to have earned the prayer/spell. Sometimes it is character appropriate, even. But, from an OOC standpoint, being attacked with this as the FIRST spell and feeling as if you had utterly no hope/chance, is very disheartening and does not make for good RP. Perhaps after five rounds into the fight the option should become enabled?

*Edited to elaborate on some areas of the post*

[Kaaurk]

They are in the game and if you don't want to deal with them don't get into PVPs that is my opinion.

[Tyeslan]

Personally, I think its the stupidest and rudest thing ever to begin a pvp with an instant death spell, so I would like to suggest that instant death spells not work during pvp against another player unless that player consents codewise or until the saves associated with instant death spells are worked out (They may be bugged)

This is based on observing at least one instance of an instant death spell being used at the start of a pvp and hearing about it being initiated recently. I think it counters proper and balanced rp to kill your oppoent outright with relative ease.

This coming from the person who uses energy drain when they feel like?

I've used, and been killed by insta death spells. It happens. It's part of the game. We all have spells, and things that the next person hates, and if we are going to go around to start restricting it will end up needing to strip every single class of anything decent, and move away from PVPs. If you cannot handle what someone might possibly have, don't get into it? I believe that is the easiest way of handling it.

[Gwain]

This coming from the person who uses energy drain when they feel like?
.

As much as I love personal attacks, yes, this is coming from someone that has used energy drain once in pvp after a long and protracted rp, energy is interesting as it only works for pvp and does not instantly kill. Whereas a spell like drown or wail of the banshee will kill instantly, especially in pvp where rp could be accomplished instead of using the spell right away.

And:

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Energy Drain
============
Necromancy
Range: Ranged Touch
Target: Offensive
Syntax: cast 'energy drain' <target>

You point your finger and utter the incantation, releasing a black ray 
of crackling negative energy that suppresses the life force of any living
creature it strikes. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit. If the 
attack succeeds, the subject suffers negative levels.

This is a stronger version of the spell Enervation.

Levels so lost can be restored using Restoration.
 
This spell cannot be cast by an illusionist
This spell cannot be cast by a transmuter

Versus:

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Wail of the Banshee
===================
Necromancy [Death, Sonic]
Range: Area
Target: Offensive
Syntax: cast 'wail of the banshee'

You emit a terrible scream that kills creatures that hear it 
(except for yourself and those grouped with you).
 
This spell cannot be cast by an illusionist
This spell cannot be cast by a transmuter

Which one is worse for pvp?

[Kinni]

I've used, and been killed by insta death spells. It happens. It's part of the game. We all have spells, and things that the next person hates, and if we are going to go around to start restricting it will end up needing to strip every single class of anything decent, and move away from PVPs. If you cannot handle what someone might possibly have, don't get into it? I believe that is the easiest way of handling it.

Sometimes, while one OOCly may not want to get into, ICly its unavoidable. Some of us sacarafice our OOC concerns to truly honor the character we play. Also, on more than one occasion, I have witnessed PvP that was not OOCly announced/forewarned/agreed upon and thus started rather unexpectedly. Some feel this is appropriate in a tense scene - that is if a player does not walk away from the interaction, then they have silently consented to the PvP. I'm not going to debate that one way or the other, but it does happen. I don't think code/restriction is required - but, perhaps a note in the helpfile that a common courtesy to make it enjoyable for all, since that is generally the point of any good game, would be to wait a few rounds before insta-death-spelling someone?

[Nylo]

Speaking for myself, I would much rather fight someone with instadeath spells than with energy drain. I don't like dying, nobody does, but I'd rather have that than have to spend hours grinding back the levels I lost.

[Gwain]

Speaking for myself, I would much rather fight someone with instadeath spells than with energy drain. I don't like dying, nobody does, but I'd rather have that than have to spend hours grinding back the levels I lost.

I'm all for limiting energy drain to ooc consent on par with insta death spells. I'm flexible in that.

[Tyeslan]

I'd rather not restrict anything. We just came away from restrictions, and allowing everyone to have a little more freedom in PVP with spells. We are moving away from comfort zones, so the first thing to be done is complain.

It's a bit refreshing to have this turn in FK. Instead I would like to see everyone embrace this a little more, get out of their shell, and start realizing that sitting in Waterdeep, or another city, thinking that everyone is safe, is out the door, and perhaps we will have more roleplay opportunities.

[Nylo]

From what I've seen, it seems the problem isn't really the spells being used, it's that the victim felt pvp was initiated without sufficient RP/OOC or IC notification of imminent pvp/a chance to escape ICly. These are, if I'm remembering the pvp helpfile correctly, requirements for any pvp situation. Perhaps a solution would be to clarify these requirements better, and stricter methods for those who do not adhere to them.

[Gwain]

I agree with Nylo. Its important to see the big picture ooc, that even if you are besting someone with ic skills, even if its a grand venture to bring them out of their comfort zone. There's this great chance that they may feel cheated or unprepared for the result. OOC curtesy is nice, we are all playing a game, and even if you are the best, or a terror you could observe curtesy. Or one day you're going to log on and be playing the game alone.

[Casamir]

Unless a fight is a friendly spar, the point of most fights is not in the fighting but rather in the ending of it. As such, it should always be expected that kills spells might be used in combat, especially if your opponent is evil. The RP leading up to the violence, as well as the OOC forewarning seems logically sufficient to me. I'd even call it a bit, if you will pardon the pun, overkill in warnings. If these requirements have not been met though, certainly that is the real problem.

[Solaghar]

I've been involved in a lot of PvP in the past. And once the RP devolves to the point of PvP, the purpose of it is to win. I was invested in some RP enough to actually fight someone, I don't want to lose. Many spells that clerics and wizards have in the 7th, 8th and 9th level are their best spells to use in combat, but they also might kill someone quickly. Even if they don't kill, they stand to do massive damage. Would you suggest to a fighter that he not use his first and second attacks during a fight, or switch to a weapon he's not as good with because it kills people too quickly? Sometimes killing someone quickly may be the only chance someone has, a wizard's inferior con and chances of getting their concentration broken by fighters, for example, would make it foolish for them to use anything but their most powerful spells to try to knock someone out of the fight ASAP, if they're getting involved in combat from an RP situation, the chances are not high that the fighter would stand there waiting for them to cast all their protective spells before the fight starts (if they did I'd say they're stupid or a Paladin)

If you don't want to be killed by a powerful spell, don't get into a fight with people who can do it. Or else, find someone who can be your friend who can cast the appropriate resistances for you if you feel like you're getting into a PvP situation. Or else... run, walk, or otherwise extricate yourself from the situation. We do have spells like death ward, and other saving-throw increasing spells to prevent these things from affecting you. People are way too brave about facing death when faced with any foe here on FK, because they know they will just be raised after the fight. This is OOC stuff infecting people's RP. If you knew a dude had a spell which could kill you instantly in real life, maybe you wouldn't be so quick to mouth off to him? Maybe you'd decide that discretion is the better part of valor today, and go find a friend to be on your side to tackle him when the odds are more in your favor? To me, people who won't back down in any situation and would rather die are pretty foolish, do you think the Gods always reward that kind of behavior when someone comes to the afterlife, throwing their lives away?

It's silly to suggest to someone that they should specifically hold one hand behind their back with spells that others decide they don't like based on their own whims so that you can beat them in a fight rather than the reverse, or to claim that it 'wasn't fair sport' to do that. If a spell is allowed for PvP then it's allowed, and I don't want to see anyone suggesting that some spells are not polite to use. There's nothing polite about a fireball to the face either, after all.

Now, that's not to say that there isn't an etiquette to PvP, of course there is. You should offer people the chance to withdraw. You should offer them the chance to set the killmode. You should refrain from calling in people from all over the world. But once that stuff is agreed upon, it's up to people to use their own skills and tactics to win the fight by whatever means they have available. Zarafae has run away from so many fights I can hardly count them, and usually she did it before the fight even started, because I was afraid I couldn't win, even a chance. But I'd watch them, I'd come back, and I'd deal with them when I had the advantage, and that's why she was such a feared opponent, because I don't believe anyone ever got the best of her in those kinds of situations. It's way better to beat an exit when you fear you can't win, not all characters are equal.

[Gwain]

Now, that's not to say that there isn't an etiquette to PvP, of course there is. You should offer people the chance to withdraw. You should offer them the chance to set the killmode. You should refrain from calling in people from all over the world. But once that stuff is agreed upon, it's up to people to use their own skills and tactics to win the fight by whatever means they have available. Zarafae has run away from so many fights I can hardly count them, and usually she did it before the fight even started, because I was afraid I couldn't win, even a chance. But I'd watch them, I'd come back, and I'd deal with them when I had the advantage, and that's why she was such a feared opponent, because I don't believe anyone ever got the best of her in those kinds of situations. It's way better to beat an exit when you fear you can't win, not all characters are equal.

I agree with this. Offering a chance for withdrawal is always better than nothing at all.

[Gwain]

Now that I've taken some time to think on it, heard a few perspectives... I think that the problem was when the spell was being cast, I think it would be a bit more reasonable to not start pvp with an instant kill spell. Rather I would prefer it happened at the middle or the end. I don't really believe in ending things quickly in combat if it could be helped, I'm all for the rp of it. I like the chances that Solaghar spoke of, I don't think that if someone verbally assaults you or says something you don't like ic that your first response is to cast an instant death, I'd prefer a smote or emote or a verbal warning back. That's the kind of thing I like doing.

[Solaghar]

If someone literally cast an instakill spell (or any) based on a conversation without discussing the PvP aspects, then that's a violation of the pkill rules in help pkill.

[Alinor]

As the player of one of the characters killed recently by in instant death spell, I thought I should chime in...
While I was a bit surprised by it, meaning I saw a spell start to be cast and then I was dead and had to look back to try and figure out what happened, I wasn't upset in any way. Nobody likes to have their character die of course but I just took it as part of the fun of trying to RP my character. OOCly I didn't really want to be involved in it. I've only been playing FK a little over a month and I know my character is a baby compared to most others involved. But I felt it wouldn't be IC for my character to just leave and ignore what was happening. I knew by making that choice, I was opening myself to the very good possibility of my character dying.
Long story short, my personal opinion of the pvp incident from yesterday, is that it wasn't that big of a deal. I saw it more as an extension of an already ongoing pvp, as opposed to a completely unexpected attack. Just my two cents on the subject.

[Mele]

I just want to make sure we remember : Death ward. There is prevention to these things. If you choose to get into PVP with powerful casters, remember prevention is a big help/sanity keeper. :)

[Isolrem]

There are insanely powerful spells in the game and their availability is also insanely limited. I love how that currently manifests in the game. Wail of the Banshee is certainly not something you'll have in your arsenal just by grinding a wizard to 50, and being able to cast it earns your character some deserved infamy. It is also fairly useless in PvE, so its awesomeness would be nullified completely if you couldn't use it in PvP.

Now granted, wail is also a domain spell for 3 domains, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. It is a known fact that some faiths simply have more powerful domains than others, and having a lvl 9 rare wizard spell instead of a common lvl 9 priest spell in your domain slot certainly favors you. Maybe that's as it should be or maybe that can be rebalanced, I'm not sure.

And of course as Mele mentioned there is a counter for everything.

[Sithiel]

My two cents on this, though it is not much.

If we consider what might happen in Forgotten Realms. Even the mightiest of warriors would be squashed like a bug in a single-combat by Elminster or Gromph Baenre for example. No fighter in their right mind would attack them single-handedly and without help if they did not have a deathwish. I personally don't like instant death-spells (mostly because I do not have acces to them ), but I do not wish to see them taken away. Personally I'd just like to see Items that at least somewhat protect you from death magic. But that's pretty much it. Like in books, if you want to kill a big bad wizard, team up. (And yes I know that's not allways possible because there are not so much people online or they are all evil etc. etc.