Ability to swap default fighter feats for dex/dw feats

[Tamryn]

So at the moment, when you join fighters, you get a number of feats for free: 3 levels in armour proficiency, shield proficiency, and tower shield proficiency.

I'd like to suggest that there be a way to give up these feats and instead get a selection of dual-wield feats: two-weapon fighting, two-weapon defence, and perhaps improved two-weapon fighting and weapon finesse (leaving greater two-weapon fighting to be trained on its own).

The reason for this is that currently, dual-wield / dex based fighters have a huge penalty in having to spend 3-4 feat points just to be equal to a fighter who uses armour and a shield, and as a result will always be less powerful. It doesn't make sense to me that someone like Tamryn would magically know how to use platemail or a tower shield just because she joined the fighters guild, when she's never actually used either of those things; and having more feat points to spend would go some way to alleviating the disadvantage dex-based fighters currently have compared to str-based fighters.

[Tyeslan]

I actually have a dual weapon fighter, and have 4 feats sitting left over even with having the stats given to me for joining the guild. I have almost all of the two weapon fighting except for one, due to the fact that I don't have 19 dex. I never found a problem with this.

[Birk]

How about just adding the two-weapon fighting feats to the list of fighter bonus feats? That's how it works in 3.5 and would give you the option of building like that if you want, at the expense of other feats.

I don't think giving the option of foregoing heavy armour feats for 2WF because it's an unnecessary layer of complexity that's better solved by bringing existing mechanics into alignment with 3.5 rules. The assumption is that anyone joining the guild receives training with heavy armour and shields, much like what any other class receives with their respective proficiencies.

[Harroghty]

I believe her point is that DEX-based fighters are at a disadvantage because the standard feats conferred upon all fighters do not benefit them. I have toyed with the idea of making fighters' guilds truly unique in that one might receive different feats from each.

[Birk]

But fighters are swimming in feats, so that's really not the problem here. The fact is that combat-wise, a dex-based fighter can easily get all the 2WF feats and still have room for greater weapon focus/specialisation, improved critical and so on.

Giving the different guilds some flavour in their fighting style specialization, philosophy, alignment and so on sounds pretty cool, but I'm not sure you need new mechanics to support it.

[Timaeus]

I agree that there is no need to alter the default feats given to fighters when they actually gain their class, fighters have more feats than any class and can easily afford to spend them on dual feats if that is the path they choose to take. I am especially against it with the current abysmal state of the Ranger class and their feats, if anything Rangers and their combat specialization need to be fixed long before any more changes are made to fighters.

[Birk]

Well, I haven't tested this myself, but according to HELP FIGHTER BONUS FEATS, the bonus feats can't actually be used for 2WF feats. So that leaves dual wielders with their normal pool of feats to purchase them, which is going to limit severely the number of non-combat feats the character can take if she also wants to be fully specialized in dual wielding. So I can see that argument, but a far better solution is just to include 2WF feats in the fighter bonus feat group.

edit: I do agree dual wield in general and rangers in particular could use a looking at.

[Gwain]

I really like the idea of the specialized fighter guilds, that's something we could use to let fighters further customize their characters and specialize skills, feats and stats.

[Trillarel]

I really like the idea of the specialized fighter guilds, that's something we could use to let fighters further customize their characters and specialize skills, feats and stats.

I like this idea, too.