The newbie experience

[Birk]

After toying around with FK for a week now, I'm going to use this thread to sum up a few of my experiences with the game so far!

Let's start with the good:

1. People
The people I've met and talked to have generally been great. Players take time for interaction when you run into them, and are helpful and polite when answering an ASK. Imms are exceptional- friendly, accessible, and receptive to suggestions and feedback.

2. Scope
A huge draw for me is having an overland map with a real sense of distance. The settlements have regional flavour, and the towns contain good little knowledge quests that provide insight in where you are and local customs and lore. Builders seem to be active, and there's still lots of spots to fill in- there's a sense that this game is continuously being built and fleshed out, and that's great.

3. Skills and advancement
Skills and abilities that improve dynamically through use are great. Especially new languages!

4. Quests
The quests can be really fun, challenging, and involving. And there are -so many of them-.


Now that that's through, let's go on to some of the bad:

5. Low-level areas
Once you pop past level 10, shit gets real real fast. Dummies are simple mobs. They respawn in predictable locations, don't gang, drop lots of gold, and provide ok experience almost all the way up to level 10. Once you're out of the temples, though, everything changes dramatically. In the low level areas we have wandering aggro mobs that gang on the player and have a far worse risk/reward ratio compared to the dummies- your gold gain plummets, you suddenly need to watch out for severed limbs or horrible death. One time, I wandered two rooms out of a newbie sewer zone, and found myself in a cluster of aggro level drainers who promptly smacked 4 levels out of me before I kicked the bucket. To compound the difficulty issues in lowbie areas, the aggro nature of the mobs can make corpse retrieval very difficult. I've come to understand that it's recommended to keep a second set of equipment in secure storage, but then not all hometowns even have storage, and further, for a new player, the OOC warning that it's liable to eat your stuff is a strong incentive to avoid use.

6. Items and gear
The issues faced by wizards are covered in its own thread so I'm not going to comment further on that, beyond noting that newbie wizards have their own troubles. But for a fighter, I've found gear and armour to be a major source of frustration. The first thing you find outside the WD newbie temple is a weaponsmith with an inventory of some 300+ weapons, most of whom are expensive masterwork pieces in all the colours of the rainbow. Still, even with 320 weapons in stock, a masterwork rapier isn't one of them. Moving on to armour. In a similiar system, the city sports merchants that stock a staggering selection of psychedelic half plate pieces, but from all my scouring of WD, Westgate, TT, Shadowdale, Silverymoon, ++, I've still not been able to procure a full suit of basic light mail or brigandine. Now- this isn't an insurmountable issue. I can get by fine with a normal rapier, and swapping out the brigandine for heavy mail or studded leather. But it's symptomatic of an item system that really is very user-unfriendly. There are what, 50-60 distinct weapons in the game- scouring a list of 320 without finding what you need is disheartening. For armour, you're searching for seven distinct pieces, and you need to examine each one from LIST closely to find out what it is, which is often anything but apparent (major issue in itself). I've seen different "breastplate" items count as brigandine, half plate and fullplate, while "mail" is also a highly ambiguous keyword often employed in descriptions.

As long as shops aren't player-driven, I think outfitting will keep making newbies balk until imms make it more accessible. We already have glory-driven recolours, so there really shouldn't be a need to keep fifty shades of gem-studded greataxe in stock. At any rate, even if said greataxes are kept available, there should at least be other places where full sets of generic gear can be obtained. This is also an issue of scope- across the entire Sword Coast, Dalelands, Tethyr, Amn and so on, obtaining basic gear really shouldn't be as difficult as it currently is.

7. Size of playerbase
My final point, and the one I think is the most fundamental. The game is built to be unintuitive in many ways- finding the right trainers for your skills, trades, places that sell equipment, and so on. Most of the accessibility issues would be easy to overcome if there was a large playerbase. Other players are needed to get into guilds, orders, other organizations, and so on. Adventuring in groups is recommended, and if you're unlucky enough to die, you'll probably need other players to get you back alive and your gear back. But we're usually no more than ten visible players on the wholist, scattered over tens of thousands of rooms, with no global channels. That means you're not going to run into other players often. The game feels like it's designed for a far larger playerbase, but when running a MUD in this day and age, it's probably better to acknowledge sooner rather than later that your game will remain a small niche played by a small group of people, and design the game so it's accessible for solo play, and consider new ways to put new players in contact with older, that isn't simply bumping into them on the road.

Bottom line- I'm enjoying my time here, but there are many many things that would contribute to scaring off newbies. It should be possible to remedy some of this without making the game less 'hardcore', or detracting from the sense of in-realm 'realism'. So to round this off: Thanks to everyone that's been a part of making my time in FK great fun so far, and to you and everyone else as well, I hope we can work together to make the game even better.

[Harroghty]

Thanks for the input and the suggestions. This is very helpful as I plan a new newbie experience.

[Kaaurk]

Good post. The only thing I would like to mention is that items and gear are sold by players so the various arrays of weapons and armour that shops have for sale are mostly items players have received through quests and sold because they did not need the item.

[Rhangalas]

...you suddenly need to watch out for severed limbs or horrible death.

Haha, the wording of this was hilarious to me for some reason... mostly because I feel your pain. I once had a Drow with detachable limb syndrome.

I kind of find the feeling of imminent death to be an enjoyable part of the game though. I remember strolling through undead-filled dungeons without a thought, these days I tend to think things through.

[Birk]

[I kind of find the feeling of imminent death to be an enjoyable part of the game though.

I do too! I'm the sort of player who play games on ironman mode just for the kick of knowing that a surprise death may ruin hours of careful work. So this is not really a key part of my critique.

The key bit is that the learning curve is needlessly harsh immediately after graduating from the newbie temples. To take an example, I saw a thread here on the forum (can't find it right now) where a player related a story about going to the kobold keep at level 10 and promptly dying to the two kobolds at the drawbridge. He's then told that a lvl10 character isn't really meant to be able to solo the keep. This is a problem, because the kobold keep is listed as a low-level area suitable for levels 1-20, and in the HELP LOW-LEVEL DUNGEONS file as a good place for newbies to go gain some levels. Along with several other areas on this list, however, it is really far more dangerous than you might get the impression of.

So you wind up in a situation where:

1. The player got killed for venturing to an area the game stated was level-appropriate to explore.
2. The player is stuck in limbo until a player or god brings his character back to life. He has no way to poke players towards the corpse outside of metagaming if he was venturing alone.
3. Even when brought back to life, the player might still be in a rough spot if the items are stuck in a room with aggressive mobs he can't defeat or get to.

The way -I think- this ought to work is more as follows:

1. The player gets killed for venturing to an area the game stated was level-appropriate to explore. This is not a huge issue. There should be warnings that even low-level areas can be very dangerous to explore, but beyond that, players should be free to poke around in places they can potentially get their guts splattered all over the floor. No need for excessive hand-holding.

2. Sticking lowbies in limbo for extensive amounts of time -is- a problem, though. My suggestion would be that up until maybe level 15, if your character stays dead for more than ten minutes without being resurrected, you're respawned in your hometown and take an experience penalty.

3. Irretrievable gear and getting yourself kitted out again is also a problem. This is also why basic gear availability is important. Currently, as part of the newbie quest, you're given some coins and taught to deposit and withdraw, then given some more coins. What I'd suggest, is that a new quest bit gets added where the banker asks the new player to deposit these coins, then explains this will be an emergency reserve if they should find themselves resurrected without access to their old gear, to outfit themselves with a horse, weapon and clothing to get on with the task of retrieving their lost items. Further, the composition of aggressive mobs in some areas designed for low-level characters should be tweaked so that it's possible to move about with a little more ease without getting tied down by aggros, precisely so anyone who died there can get around back to their corpse with more ease. I consider rat hill well-designed in this respect.

The bottom line is that players should be acquainted to dying before the penalties and issues with death are ramped up hardcore. Getting back to the status quo ante bellum needs to be easier.

[Viss]

Birk, i agree with many of your points so far. At least to an extent. I think education is the answer more than new areas etc. Here are my thoughts on a few of the points.

I would recommend adding into the starting area in waterdeep some speech about how to use and the advantages of ranged weapkns and combat in general, and little tips i guess about keeping spare coin in the bank in case of death.


Low level areas: I feel there are plenty of areas. Getting by alive outside of the newbie areas is relatively easy. You just have to think a little and use some strategy such as a ranged weapon or spell to split up aggressive mobs.

items and gear: I 100% agree that all available starting cities need to have full sets of basic armors. i would say probably studded, and heavy mail at a minimum. Some cities have some of these already.

playerbase: is what it is sadly. be sure to vote!

death: Death is supposed to suck and not be a grand experience, so dont do it! The bank isnt there for show, this is one reason. use a mount, keep a saddlebag etc on them whith extra equipment in case you need it as well

agroung mobs: There are a few ways to deal with this. Use a ranged weapon or spell to draw 1 of them to you to split them, sneak/invis past them, or pull up your britches and go in swords a blazing.

[Rhangalas]

Low level areas: I feel there are plenty of areas. Getting by alive outside of the newbie areas is relatively easy. You just have to think a little and use some strategy such as a ranged weapon or spell to split up aggressive mobs.

I wouldn't say it was easy, but at the same time, it's not impossible. Preparation is key.

Though, I would not recommend using ranged weapons/spells soley to try to split groups by pulling. Generally, if you pull one, the others will follow and assist. Your best bet as a non-caster would be to just pull a mob by itself. As a caster though, crowd control spells can be your best friend. Pull, control, and win.

[Trillarel]

I agree with most of Birk's points and I will add one more.

I *think* I have 10 characters on my account now. At least 2 of them are perma-dead (stuck in limbo for more than a year IRL) - ie. there is never an Imm online when I log in with them and other players are scarce and those 2 never really got to know anyone so I have no way to return them back to the land of living. I think one of them is lvl 10 and the other lvl 11, thus highlighting the problem of lowbie areas and dying.

So please, make it possible for characters to be resurrected by Imms when I am not online, as getting the two in sync can be very difficult.

[Harroghty]

You can be resurrected by an immortal when you are not on-line. While the staff frequently seeks out the corpses of newbies and either nudges another player in that direction or resurrects them personally, I believe it worth mentioning that this is a courtesy to new players who are still figuring the game out. (Many years ago I was rescued by Torm when slain by a giant as a brand new player.)

[Birk]

Hey Viss! That's a good post, and I'd like to comment on a few of the points you raise:

Birk, i agree with many of your points so far. At least to an extent. I think education is the answer more than new areas etc. Here are my thoughts on a few of the points.

Agreed. I want to point out that what I tried to do here is not to say that x, y, and z are all problems- I'm trying to show how factors x y and z interact in a way that produces a problematic outcome.

I would recommend adding into the starting area in waterdeep some speech about how to use and the advantages of ranged weapkns and combat in general, and little tips i guess about keeping spare coin in the bank in case of death.

Agreed.

Low level areas: I feel there are plenty of areas. Getting by alive outside of the newbie areas is relatively easy. You just have to think a little and use some strategy such as a ranged weapon or spell to split up aggressive mobs. (...) agroung mobs: There are a few ways to deal with this. Use a ranged weapon or spell to draw 1 of them to you to split them, sneak/invis past them, or pull up your britches and go in swords a blazing.

I disagree. Keep in mind that as a newbie who wanders the road outside your hometown for the first time, something trivial like a pair of bandits might well be enough to get you in deep trouble. Also consider that newbies who come out of the temples don't even know how to get hold of an arrow, much less how to draw aggro properly with ranged weapons. It might not be such a problem when you're familiar with mechanics, but the core premise here is that a new player isn't very knowledgeable.

death: Death is supposed to suck and not be a grand experience, so dont do it!

Absolutely disagree. Keeping death harsh and a real penalty is okay. But imo, we should absolutely be aiming to make it a grand experience! Games should attempt to make people have fun, even when you're losing and your character is regressing. And the current design, where new players potentially end up floating in limbo for hours and hours on end, is not conducive to this goal.

[Rhangalas]

At least 2 of them are perma-dead... and those 2 never really got to know anyone so I have no way to return them back to the land of living.

While dead, I do not think you are restricted by who your PC knew in life - the helpfiles did not have any specification that your PC must know the PC that you contact.

I view it as a ghost haunting the living, so if there is no one I know online, but I see a PC with priest or priestess in their title, I will attempt to parlay with them. If there are no discernable clergy online though, then it's waiting time.

Keeping death harsh and a real penalty is okay. But imo, we should absolutely be aiming to make it a grand experience!

I think there is something in the works for the Fugue or there was plans/discussion of updating the area not too long ago.

[Gwain]

I agree, you're a spirit, contact anyone you think could help you. Clerics can see the realm of death when they want to, so if its in their nature to help, they'll probably help you.

[Lylena]

I agree, you're a spirit, contact anyone you think could help you. Clerics can see the realm of death when they want to, so if its in their nature to help, they'll probably help you.

This. Even though I don't have priest/priestess in my title, I've had someone contact me who was dead that I'd never met before in the past. I'd rather if a newbie finds themselves in that position, to yes, reach out to whoever they can to try and bring them back. Even if it's not very IC for the character I'm on to do so, I will make it work and come up with whatever excuse. Death's not fun for anyone, and if you have to bother a few people to come back to life, so be it. The game should be enjoyable, and the moment it's not, that's when we dwindle in players.

PS: YA VOTE!

[Dranso]

I feel the most important thing for a new person is to get out and start role playing right off the bat. Sure the help files and starting areas provide a lot of info but it's nothing compared to the info that someone with 2000+ hours on their account can give you. Anyone who has been playing a little while can tell you where the best spots to train are according to your level. They can tell you where to get gear, where to train skills/spells/feats etc. If they want they can tell you tricks they've learned to make things easier, and depending on the PC they will do this with a smile on their face.

The argument against this is player base. Honestly though, I've never really had too much trouble finding anyone to talk to. Even when there are only 10 players on I always wind up running into someone.

So to conclude I would always say that even though the help files are extensive and there to use, you will find that players can provide more knowledge in a more satisfying way.

[Birk]

The argument against this is player base. Honestly though, I've never really had too much trouble finding anyone to talk to. Even when there are only 10 players on I always wind up running into someone.

So to conclude I would always say that even though the help files are extensive and there to use, you will find that players can provide more knowledge in a more satisfying way.

Without trying to say that your experience is wrong, I want to say that I find your approach very problematic.

The playerbase is small. If you're on a quiet timezone, you're likely to see far less than ten people on at any given time. The world is huge, tens of thousands of rooms. There are no global channels, nor have I found any common gathering place (a neutral ground tavern or somesuch) where people tend to congregate to roleplay, like some MUDs wind up with. This is a design choice and not one I dislike, because for me it provides immersion and a sense of depth. But I absolutely believe it's misguided to combine it with an expectation that new players should be learning the ropes from older ones, because mechanics for connecting new players with mentors and teachers are practically nonexistent.

[Esselwyr]

I will have to agree with Birk's comments. I heavily rp my character and do a fair bit of exploring and I adopted this stance due to my frustrations at advancing my class. The small player base has created two things: players having multiple character on one account and players knowing each other oocly. I know that as the new kid on the block I was going to have growing pains. I noticed quickly the cliques that formed. I have nothing against them. I think it's a natural process of the game. But if you're not hooked into these cliques, you're going to get discouraged.

When I don't feel like playing my class, I fall back on what's fun for me: rp. I stopped looking at other players much because for me it's discouraging to see a character half my level blinged out. I can kind of guess that these are new incarnations of seasoned characters and I'm not tossing shade at that. It is what it is. I slowed the pace of advancing my character because of much of the points that Birk stated. I know the flavor of the mud has turned towards the dark side and rangers and being neither of those, I think, as a player, my best option is to make my own fun in the game. Having said all that, my character probably won't be a powerhouse or be able to compete with the powergamers who level to 50 in less than a month. I accept that.

I would recommend to a new player to make your own fun in the game. If gaining levels, power and loot is important to you, you have to align yourself with similar thinking players. They are out there. If rping is more your thing, align yourself with similar thinking players. They are out there too.

[Selveem]

I noticed quickly the cliques that formed. I have nothing against them. I think it's a natural process of the game. But if you're not hooked into these cliques, you're going to get discouraged.

I realize this post is old but this is something I wanted to address for other players as well as the new players above:

I won't say that there aren't cliques, but what I will posit is that many of the suspected members aren't exclusionary.

I would say, if anything, that most of the playerbase I've encountered here is willing to give you a chance and actively seek out speaking with you for the purpose of, eventually, claiming you as one of their friends.

I hope this information is useful to those above as well as others.