Nondetection vs scrying

[Wenin]

A search of the forum didn't turn up this conversation and I'm a bit surprised.


There seems to be a clear decision to limit the effectiveness of Nondetection from any of the DnD systems. In all of the systems, this spell lasted hours per level. In FK it lasts a "short time".

Has there been a discussion long ago as to why this spell's duration was so drastically limited?

To me it seems a bit imbalanced, as the ability to scry on other players are pretty effective. Not only has the counter to this spell been decreased, there doesn't appear to be a chance for someone to detect a scrying attempt.

I would like to suggest that Nondetection have its duration increased to fall in line with other long lasting spells, such as Waterbreathing.

[Wenin]

Does no one know why the spell nondetection has had its duration so clearly decreased? Has it always been so short?

[Harroghty]

It has always been short, apparently. I did some digging in old staff discussions.

[Enig]

I found a reference to nondetection dating back from 2005, while the spellcasting system was still awaiting extensive changes. I'd bet the nondetection we have in FK is based on the stock spell and since it has the same name and general function it probably wasn't looked at when the system was changed over (from mana to spell slots), thus this discrepency in duration between the MUD and the SRD.

[Wenin]

What do you mean by "Stock Spell"? Is that stock as in it came with the MUD software itself?


Is there a standardized spell's duration that is used as a measuring stick? Waterbreathing is the longest spell duration I know of.

Waterbreathing
- 1st/2nd edition - 6 turns/level = 1 hour/level
- 3rd edition - 2 hours/level

Nondetection
- 1st/2nd edition - 1 turn/level = 10 mins / level
- 3rd Edition - 1 hour/level


I'm not sure what we use as a guideline, but I'd purpose that non-detection be made to last half as long as Waterbreathing.

[Elenthis]

I do think that nondetection could use a little bump in duration, but I would caution against bumping it dramatically. I would hate to see this become the next tongues or Waterbreathing. Spells that last forever without the use of extend/persist cheapen the two feats as well as whatever spell(s) they counter.

[Casamir]

Non-detection could use a boost, and water breathing could definitely be shortened. Tongues though, seems fine as it is.

[Wenin]

I have to agree... the duration of water breathing from a potion did seem surprisingly long.

[Hrosskell]

Nondetection is a skill without any counterplay; once it's applied there's nothing to do but dispel it (and you can't do that if you can't find someone). This contrasts vs. other spells whose only answer is dispel because those spells are typically only useful in dispel range. I personally think giving it a short duration (shorter than it would regen naturally without meditate) is a fine check for the way this game plays.

[Wenin]

Nondetection is a counter to scrying, which currently has no counter-play as far as I'm aware.
Is there a chance that someone can sense they are being scryed upon?

Is there any use for Nondetection besides a counter against scrying?

I don't believe it adds to a hide check.
It should strengthen invisibility against detect invisibility
Can one cast Dispel Magic in an area?

[Alitar]

I feel like people already use Scrying habitually and without acknowledging that it is a terrible inappropriate breach of other people's privacy ICly. A goodly mage scrying on his friend to make sure he's alright seems innocent, but realisitically it is uninvited spying. Just think about how you as a person would feel if your government/friends/etc randomly hid camera around you to watch you. That said, I sorta feel that our game's player culture should move a bit away from the random 'magic mirror'ing of people without due cause. It is something cast by so many for no better reason than "I'm bored." that I feel people may have forgotten what exactly it is that they are doing with the spell. I would love to see the victim character get an echo like, "The hair on your neck raises..." in response to some of these spells.

As for nondetection- Scry is a spell that is cast for immediate affect while nondetection is not. Scry can be cast repeatedly and has instantaneous affect so there really is no change needed for it to function appropriately in the setting. Nondetection is an odd spell because it really functions in an IRL time while the other spells function in game-time. Nondetection is limited to gametime in length but it plays against the opposing player scrying the user.

tl;dr
I think Nondetection should last longer and we should impose something to help adjust our spying culture a bit (I really like the echo idea.)

[Gwain]

I would not mind seeing non detection last a bit longer. It's mostly harmless in some respects and those having it operational for as long as a half hour game time will more than likely not abuse it. However I don't see a point to lowering the timed affects of various unrelated spells to 'balance' out this one spell in the off chance it is not increased. That just seems desperate.

[Gwain]

Though...if you wanted to nip it in the bud, so to speak, simply make the costliest scry component disappear on each casting in order to make casting the spell less regular.

[Wenin]

I'd rather keep with SRD, where there is no costly component... and none of my characters can scry

[Rhangalas]

I think both aspects should be brought up to SRD standards. Without both of them acting as they should, there will always be the argument that one side is stronger than the other.

As for scrying in general... yeah, I can agree that some players might use magic mirror out of boredom, but there are just as many who use it frequently because it is in their character's nature to do so. I don't think we should start policing how often spellcasters are using a certain spell; we already have policies for the spells that need them.

There should only be a policy if the spell's effects are harmful to bystanders - monster summon - or are harmful to the way the game runs: death/charm spells. I do not see how "casters can see me when I don't want them to" means that we need to make it apparent when someone has scried you, because that is definitely not something that every PC should automatically succeed at, thus saving throws. There is also detect scrying.

[Wenin]

My suggestion of sensing someone scrying upon you, came from something I recall coming from a gaming source. Thing is, I can't recall which edition, nor whether it was core or a 3rd party supplement.

I can't seem to find anything on it.

Does anyone recall this?

It was a calculation, where a percentage chance was figured based on level of target being scryed and their class.... and maybe even an ability score.

[Anguin]

From the SRD

Code: Select all

Scrying

A scrying spell creates an invisible magical sensor that sends you information. Unless noted otherwise, the sensor has the same powers of sensory acuity that you possess. This level of acuity includes any spells or effects that target you, but not spells or effects that emanate from you. However, the sensor is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours, and thus it functions normally even if you have been blinded, deafened, or otherwise suffered sensory impairment.

Any creature with an Intelligence score of 12 or higher can notice the sensor by making a DC 20 Intelligence check. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell.

Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked. 

[Rhangalas]

Yep...

Currently magic mirror functions like a long-range camera that takes a snapshot of the target. Ideally it should be like FK's clairvoyance, except the sensor would be ranged and would follow the target until it expires, is dispelled, or the caster ends the scry.

If changes were made, magic mirror should probably be a 6th circle spell as we already have clairvoyance at 4 and arcane eye at 7. Though, arcane eye is supposed to be 4, clairvoyance 3, and greater scrying at 6 (probably no need for greater scrying right now, since there aren't many planar areas yet). Clairvoyance is also supposed to be ranged like the other two, only the sensor can't move.