Bards

[Harroghty]

No, no, don't worry. I am not giving up on the Zhentilar and Zhentarim, but we need to talk about bards and publishing though.

In summary:

• bards need help and we're discussing what to do
• publications process must change and we'd like input

The information in the new help bards and the existing help publications is correct right now. The old help bard publications is defunct. Bard dwellings too are obsolete and that help file is now also defunct. To summarize: one must publish one book or perform publicly once in order to become a bard. There are varying requirements for bard schools (and we need new bard schools), but the bottom requirement is 15 CHA (a school can require more, but not less).

Publications must be either sent through a PC-run publishing house (there is one active now in Waterdeep) or submitted through applications (if one would not deal with that house IC). The trouble is that publications are just eating up game space and eating up staff time. So, I would like to know, how valuable are they to the players at large?

The staff opinion (at least those three or four of us who discussed this, not an official stance) is that lore and religion books are useful. Existing books should be kept, but that future books should either be forced through a PC-run publisher or moved to self-publishing (a generic book object which could be edited like parchment or performance note boards). What are your ideas?

[Aldren]

I'm of the opinion that books should easily-enough be moved to self-publication. I understand the idea of having 3 PC publishers available to push these through and get them into the game, it also still eats up staff time and I, personally, have sent publications in via this method and heard nothing back. I see no reason why the process could not be automated - if the books come out with grammatical errors, hold the author accountable directly.

I see no reason to eat up staff hours in pushing publications through - if it's possible to automate the process, I'm all for it. I'm also all for not punishing other characters based on availability of PCs to push through publications and get rogues turned into bards, but that is a minority percentage of the people sending in publications.

On a sidenote, I think that books (especially lore and religion books) add incredible depth and value to the game. I'd rather not see them done away with, and still allow players some way to publish their own works as they have for so long.

[Harroghty]

Okay. Another branch to toss on the fire...

...lore and religion books can be added via new areas. This means that authors can collaborate with builders. Building is already a functioning, regulated process which includes its own review.

[Elenthis]

I think that as far as publications go, having more players (bards) collaborate with builders would be a multi-gooderment process. Getting more players, even very loosely involved with building can only be a good thing. And it would be as simple as opening up a new thread on the boards in the building area, where people can put:

I have a good-aligned book, waiting for area.
I have an racial book (elven) of stories waiting for area.
I have a class book (wizards) geared toward new wizards waiting for area.

OR

I have an area waiting for publications. Looking for something Orc-related. Pref. Orc fables about broccoli soup, and the dangers thereof.


The publishing process gains little by being an IC process with a publishing house and all. I never see bards getting groups together to "go to see the publisher". And I'm not sure, but I don't think publishing books has been a huge financial success IC for bards either. With the ability for active builders to periodically update their own areas, I cannot image a well-written book would wait long before one of these builders would find a home for it.

I also agree with Aldren. I am strongly for any legacy items for characters (Books, items, dwellings, etc) and I think it's important that we find a sustainable way to continue to offer these as a way to add depth. I very much look forward to the day when, if you're interested in an IC subject, you can go find the info in-game instead of via google.

[Myn]

I like the idea of having the IC publishers and all, but would hate to see the number of just random books that can be purchased throughout the realms become fewer, or at least not grow. I love going periodically to the normal bard publishing places and seeing whats new (I am actually writing this when returning with 8 new books to add to Myn's already large library). Having easy access to SO many books, I think, helps develop characters. Most my my characters have had a favorite (Myn thinks that EVERYONE should own the Snow Queen's Daughter, and The Basilisk).

[Gwain]

I would like to see a multi page book item that you can write in and take to a scribe to duplicate and distribute on your own.

[Althasizor]

... or moved to self-publishing (a generic book object which could be edited like parchment or performance note boards).

This, I think, would be particularly amazing. I like the idea of PC-run publishers, but I also enjoy the idea of some hard-working kid or desperate author out trying to spread their work. It certainly adds a new layer of roleplay on both sides(author/publisher and reader) that isn't seen by simply going and purchasing a book from an NPC shop, and anyway to save space/extend our game's life should get all our seals of approval.

Sending in books to be added in with new areas is also a fantastic idea, new content coming in WITH new books to read(that only take up room already set aside, correct?)? Sign me up!

I don't really have anything to add to this discussion that wasn't said above in the thread, just to chime in with agreement to this and everything Aldren said.

[Necalli]

Self-publishing sounds like the way to go, but also with the an option for bards to publish them through NPCs and receive income through sales.

The way I imagine it working would be, the book item allows anyone to create written works. Though the item should cost a fair bit. (bards would be able to get them at a reduced price through guilds and such). It would cut down on spam and, realistically, in a setting like this, books are luxuries for the rich. Each book would have to be duplicated manually and spread by hand if the author is not a bard. This would be cool, because it would open up a venue for rare and/or one-of-a-kind works. It's a double-whammy too, because with a system like this, you don't necessarily need a slew of active bards for in-game books to be feasible. You could further the awesome by allowing these books to be sold at all of the small library shops like Serpentil, Mirripi, Maerki the Mad...

If this was possible, I already have one bookworm wizard that would probably revise his entire library himself with spellcheck, more appealing colors and format, bindings, titles, lore corrections, weeding out multiples, etc. And probably translate all of them into infernal just for kicks.

Hmm... gave myself an idea there. Maybe put this item into a customization shop. So you could get some flavor from appearance... metallic bindings, bindings with locks, binding that strangely appears to be human skin, dragon hide, wood... etc. Maybe a variety of sizes too; more pages costs more.

[Baeus]

I like almost everything mentioned in previous posts. However, I’m not fond of someone being able to alter my work once I’ve put words to paper, other than an official editor. Something like that would be way too easy to abuse and a potential problem for the staff to have to police, when the point was to lessen their load to begin with.

The idea here is to allow self-publishing for players to lessen the load on the staff thru an automated process in regard to publications? I’m all for this, but I still think bards will always need some form of staff interaction. There needs to be a filter to regulate standards and make sure people just aren’t submitting garbage to meet a quotas for rewards.

Yes, I think the reward/incentive still needs to be there for bards, above and beyond making roleplay props. Performance and creative works are described as the bread and butter of the class. Without it, I think slipping into bard-in-name-only mode would ensue, with the only performance being done is the evoking of combat abilities. Perhaps simply stating that only one bard publication per week (the guild entry publication included) can be submitted, in addition to the new self-publication would solve the issue?

But what would this look like in regard to an editor? Does that mean creating in text software, converting your writing into the proper format and then cut and pasting line for line within an in-game editor?

Publication Thread on The Website– When you self-publish or have something on sale at a shop somewhere you can stop by here and post a brief summary. Also, there could be a separate section for reviews of the work. In the review section, if enough positive comments about a book have been made then perhaps it can be selected for sales within a store without the need for mass production.

I absolutely love the idea of customization options for a special tome you can take to a print house containing the manuscript for the book you want made or duplicated.

[Necalli]

I like almost everything mentioned in previous posts. However, I’m not fond of someone being able to alter my work once I’ve put words to paper, other than an official editor... But what would this look like in regard to an editor? Does that mean creating in text software, converting your writing into the proper format and then cut and pasting line for line within an in-game editor?

Yeah, there should probably be a 'finalize' command of some sort on the item. Once you use it, the book becomes unwrite-able. The only way someone could alter it would be to buy the book, buy a blank book item, and then rewrite it with their editing included. That was my plan. I think I have 3-4 books right now on Planes that pretty much have the same exact information in them, minus a page or less of original content. So what I would do is just combine them all into one, but with better format, arrangement, and grammar.

Not really sure about the editor. I've always use writing software and then copy/pasted it, but I just copy the entire page at once. Line for line would be the suck.

For a book, I would probably do something like: wrap to 70 characters, center, and page break at 35 lines.

[Grenwyn]

(a generic book object which could be edited like parchment or performance note boards).

This please.

When drafting a book it would be much simpler than juggling dozens of pieces of parchment (as one of my characters did in the past).

I also have a couple characters who would use these for personal ledgers as well, without publishing them.

[Baeus]

Yes, I think the reward/incentive still needs to be there for bards, above and beyond making roleplay props. Performance and creative works are described as the bread and butter of the class. Without it, I think slipping into bard-in-name-only mode would ensue, with the only performance being done is the evoking of combat abilities. Perhaps simply stating that only one bard publication per week (the guild entry publication included) can be submitted, in addition to the new self-publication would solve the issue?

I see that the reward for published titles consisted of tokens toward dwellings, which are now an inactive feature? Perhaps replace this with a store that offers a selection of bard related items of remarkable characteristics, with various vendors that will sell to you once you have been rewarded a certain number of publication tokens.

Bard only Musical note ion stones.
Bard only Weapons that proc the visual and audio illusion of ethereal musical notes every 15 min when activated (so as not to spoil hiding).
Bard only Costume clothing
A selection of Bard only automaton dummies that can be used as pets
A selection of Bard only instruments charged with various spells.
Bard only instrument cases with magic filigree that animates along its surface to reenact historical scenes every 15 min when activated (so as not to spoil hiding).
Bard only publishing binder decorated with animating filigree as described above.

[Harroghty]

In an attempt to summarize what I am hearing...

• Make books that can be edited by PCs (but add a finalize command): the finalize command is easy, but the book itself will need some help from Mask (things such as letters and parchment require some hard code in order to effect). Overall, this should be pretty simple.
  
  Allow some books to be published in the current fashion (or something like it): people in general are happy with books being included in new areas, but some want some other means to make new books.
  
  Include future bard guilds with some nice flair for bards.

[morbein]

Hello! I would like also to chime in and add that from a playing-the-class point of view, they need something that makes them a more valuable team asset than they currently are and a few spells that enhance both their party and themselves, more specifically...

• Better songs; Currently their use is a bit unwieldy and the benefits outshined by simple spells, yet I think that they could be improved applying/solving the following points, in overall terms the bardic experience would be much better.
  
  • SPAM; A bard singing a bard song will quickly flood the screen and while in combat, the song's lines, will quickly get lost in the buffer, perhaps getting a general echo in a distinctive color each X rounds specifying the name of the song being sung will alleviate it and provide the party members a more visible idea of what is the merry bard singing.
    
    Improved songs; Improve and escalate the songs' power relating them to the sing skill, make it a true difference of a novice bard against GM bard singing the same song, bringing the 3.5 bardic inspiration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm)
    
    Bard specific feats; Lingering song, Lyric spell, Melodic casting. Bardic feats that will improve/broaden the options of using the bard's music.
  Better spells; There are a lot of spells that benefit the bard and/or the party without being broken, also many of these could be learned by other classes.
  
  • Grease, Inspirational Boost, Remove fear, Alter spell, Blur, Haste, Slow, Amplify, Displacement, Confusion, Greater Invisibility, Shout, Dirge, Eyebite, Song of Discord...

Thank you for your time in reading this post.

[Baeus]

Hello! I would like also to chime in and add that from a playing-the-class point of view, they need something that makes them a more valuable team asset than they currently are and a few spells that enhance both their party and themselves, more specifically...

Morbein
I agree with almost everything that you posted and think that perhaps we should think of this as what, "role" bards are supposed to play in their groups. Absolutely the class can be improved upon but as stated they are supposed to be a jack of all trades. They have some fighting ability; can heal in a pinch when a cleric us unavailable; pick locks with a decent reflex save when they set off the trap if a rogue is unavailable; cloak themselves for scouting and corpse retrievals. I would say that all these things are quite useful to a group, as the bard can play filler in a variety of situations.

If a clearly defined role is needed for the class I would say it should be in the form of, "crowd control". Charms, holds, dances ,etc. I'm still a very young bard but I know that these things are already in play. Does it not seem enough? The class should be tweaked in such a way that no other can come close to it in this regard, if that is not already the case, be it thru song, ability or learned spells. Extra feats as you suggested would make all the difference. Increasing the duration, making them harder to resist, increasing the number of songs, increasing caster level, etc.

These are the roles I see roughly being played. However, other minor roles are possible depending on spells, level and feat selection:

Clerics - Healing, wards and group enhancements, raising dead
Wizards - Damage, wards and group enhancements, utility, tanking (at a certain level with appropriate wards)
Fighters - Tanking, damage, survivability
Thief - Anti personnel circumvention, scouting?, damage
Bard - Utility, group enhancements, masters of crowd control

[Nimboro]

So, I read through all this briefly and I have one question... What would become of publication tokens? There is a trainer (for us Ebon Thorn folks) who requires you to of turned in five tokens in order to receive their training. Would this requirement be removed if we went to a self publishing system? Would there be another way to obtain publishing tokens?

[Baeus]

So, I read through all this briefly and I have one question... What would become of publication tokens? There is a trainer (for us Ebon Thorn folks) who requires you to of turned in five tokens in order to receive their training. Would this requirement be removed if we went to a self publishing system? Would there be another way to obtain publishing tokens?

If I'm not mistaken the performance tokens are still being handed out for live performances and work that you actually have published thru one of the player publishing houses. From what was described to me certain npcs would treat you differently the more tokens you have turned in, which may open you up for things either live now or planned in the works. It is no longer for working toward housing.

[Harroghty]

Performance tokens are kind of hit and miss right now. There is a convoluted system of tokens at present. I would like to reorganize performances and publications (I am still waiting on some input from Mask) and then reorganize tokens, streamlining the system.

[Baeus]

Include future bard guilds with some nice flair for bards.[/list]

There are already three bard schools one can join, at least on the surface. I don't think it necessary to make more, when enhancing what is already there would do just fine.

I recently joined the Sapphire Star Music School in Darromar. Sure enough I finally found a skill there that I could have been using since level 10. Frustrating, but I was glad to finally have access to it. There were also two songs that I was looking forward to learning, but I'll get back to that. What was very anti climatic was the spell selection available there. A level 30 requirement and I'm seeing two or three very low level spells being offered? All of them easily accessed and learned elsewhere, many levels ago.

Then there are the songs: two actual days later since I began scouring the realms I've recovered 4 of 6 books needed to learn the bard songs offered at the school. Divination on one book points me to the only listed copy being carried by a publisher who wont sell to me. The other points to a non descript, "the priest" that I may or may not have overlooked in the process of searching every temple and book store I could find. The whole Easter egg, slowly disseminated knowledge thing is all good and well when the class in question is well represented in the player base, not so much when once in a blue moon I come across another bard, and they are usually less experienced than me.

Gear Armor and Clothing: By the time the second or third school is an option most of us have acquired pieces of magical armor and have invested glory to incorporate them into our own unique look. There may be lore reasons for using loud colors appropriate to a school, but unless the gear is magical chances are its either going to sit right in the npc vendor or get thrown into a saddlebag or cart if its a graduation reward. Mundane pieces with black or neutral colors are much more likely to get used in part. Instruments, accessories and props are different, especially if they have programs on them.

With people near my own character level I make a decent substitute healer when there isn't a cleric available. Around real healers or some of the older folks and I quickly get the feeling of being along for the ride. Reasons:

1. I'm missing a few valuable spells. This is probably the easiest to rectify as there is more than once source of learning. However, the offerings at all three of the schools I belong to is rather pathetic. I've learned more, "outside" these places.

2. I'm over the mid level mark and only know two of the seven possible bardsongs, neither of which is the offensive variant. Its hard to get an accurate read on the potential of a class when you've got to be well over mid level to have a chance at accessing most of the important abilities.

3. Even with grand mastered meditation the speed in which spells are refreshed is noticeably slower than that of a cleric or wizard. This I get, as the ability to cast any spell you know at will without specific memorization is incredible. When alone this isn't an issue. However, in a group people can become impatient when you feel the need to stop more frequently than the other casters.